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"As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters..."
Same sentiment.
Morality without action is nothing hence, it's not morality. The very term "morality" implies that of action like the word "flight"...both of which are nouns.
Morality is defined as:
Random House Unabridged Dictionary
Conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
The American Heritage® Dictionary
The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct: religious morality; Christian morality.
Virtuous conduct.
A rule or lesson in moral conduct.
All imply action so I wouldn't call him a moron based on that...seems lots of scholars and Ben Franklin agree with him.
Anyhow, I've been out of this thread long enough to get lost in the details so I'll bow out for now...besides that, I have a nice warm dinner waiting.
So...you still think anyone calls themself a Christian is moral, then? It's funny how I prove you wrong and you scurry away from the topic to patronize others.
Finally a voice of reason. BTW, does God still have that white beard and live up in the sky?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna7
The mandate you are pushing on me and millions of others is your morality and religious convictions that you are working very hard to LEGISLATE. Listen here, I couldn't care less about your judgment. You are not God nor will you ever be God nor will I ever confuse you with being God. You can roll your eyes until the cows come home. I have 7 beautiful and healthy children. My childbearing has come to an end. However, you and the likes of you will not have control or dominance over my daughters and the other women and girls of this country. You are not going to be their moral conscience or their moral or religious compass. You are not my moral or religious compass either. I don't care what you do or what you choose to do. But you care very much what other people do. What someone does is between them and their creator.
Your overbearing views is what's wrong with this country. I took some classes this Spring semester at a state university. I heard loud disturbance coming outside the library where I was studying. This was right after the Virginia Tech shootings and I had a horrible feeling like something similiar might be happening at our campus. It turned out to be the "pro-life protestors" who were screaming at the top of their lungs, yelling and taunting people, following students around, getting in their faces, and being generally obknoxious. My 21 year-old son who also attends the same campus called me on his cell phone to tell me that he was practically accousted by one of the protestors as he was doing his job on campus (delivering audio visual equipment). I complained to the police and was told that unless one is physically accousted by the protestors, there is nothing they could do. The protestors were sickening and revolting to the highest degree. The protestors did nothing but to reaffirm my position on choice and to thank God that we live in a country that STILL offers choice...that and that we don't wear burkas yet...
Frankly, I do not wish to be mean to someone that I don't even know. I don't know you. I should not be this mean to someone that I wouldn't know from Adam. I can't believe that there are those that look at things at see it as totally black or white, right or wrong. I'm finished.
The mandate you are pushing on me and millions of others is your morality and religious convictions that you are working very hard to LEGISLATE. Listen here, I couldn't care less about your judgment. You are not God nor will you ever be God nor will I ever confuse you with being God. You can roll your eyes until the cows come home. I have 7 beautiful and healthy children. My childbearing has come to an end. However, you and the likes of you will not have control or dominance over my daughters and the other women and girls of this country. You are not going to be their moral conscience or their moral or religious compass. You are not my moral or religious compass either. I don't care what you do or what you choose to do. But you care very much what other people do. What someone does is between them and their creator.
Your overbearing views is what's wrong with this country. I took some classes this Spring semester at a state university. I heard loud disturbance coming outside the library where I was studying. This was right after the Virginia Tech shootings and I had a horrible feeling like something similiar might be happening at our campus. It turned out to be the "pro-life protestors" who were screaming at the top of their lungs, yelling and taunting people, following students around, getting in their faces, and being generally obknoxious. My 21 year-old son who also attends the same campus called me on his cell phone to tell me that he was practically accousted by one of the protestors as he was doing his job on campus (delivering audio visual equipment). I complained to the police and was told that unless one is physically accousted by the protestors, there is nothing they could do. The protestors were sickening and revolting to the highest degree. The protestors did nothing but to reaffirm my position on choice and to thank God that we live in a country that STILL offers choice...that and that we don't wear burkas yet...
Frankly, I do not wish to be mean to someone that I don't even know. I don't know you. I should not be this mean to someone that I wouldn't know from Adam. I can't believe that there are those that look at things at see it as totally black or white, right or wrong. I'm finished.
I think his point is that it is a life regardless. Keep in mind that we see that the moment of conception, it becomes a life and is termed so by the simplest sense biologically. From this side, it is killing the baby. It is just that in many realms, people choose to decide when they think it is really a baby. It is easy to then do that (I am not saying abortions are easy, rather the view of it being a child) because the baby is viewed as not really a life.
This also varies in opinion among pro-abortion people. Ask them at what point they think it becomes an actual life, a baby, and the answer will be a range of different times. Some will say only up to a certain point and others will strictly hold that until it is born, it is not a life.
Now I know some of these protesters and activists go to very to extremes and some to levels I think are really overboard. Keep in mind though that they view this action as if you were murdering a child.
Look at it this way. What if it was legal to kill your child up to 5 years of age. Don't make excuses about that it would never happen. The thought of an abortion not too long ago would have made the public shudder and scream in outrage. So just think how you would react to the scenario I gave. Would you be angry? Would you be adamant and forceful in wanting people to see what atrocities they are allowing to happen? I hope you would.
Now you get kind of a perspective of how many who are pro-life are reacting to this. To them, this is no different than you deciding you didn't want your child anymore and took it down to a clinic where a doctor hit it over the head and disposed of it for you. They see it quite similar.
Not only that, but one has to wonder of the position when you see the methods of the abortion, more specifically how someone could deny the actual act when it concerns things like partial birth abortions.
I hope you can at least understand why this is a hot issue and why there is great opposition for it. For you to ask them to sit back and let people allow this to happen is asking them to sit back and allow you to kill your children similar to what I described up there. People don't feel as if they are telling you how to live your life, they feel they are saving not only the child, but you from committed a great crime on the child. They view it as keeping you from killing a child. Can you at least see their point of view?
What is your point? That man can twist the words of God to meet his own desires? It has been happening from day one. Also, if you do a little reading in the Bible you will notice that Satan was the master of this. He attempted to tempt Christ into sin by twisting scripture.
My point was that a Christian sinning is not proof of the failure of Christianity. In fact, it is just the opposite. It is proof that man is a sinner and requires help from God to avoid it.
If you are looking for me to support wackos who use God's word to their own ends, you won't find it. Sorry to disappoint.
I'm not looking for that kind of thing -- my point, in this increasingly hostile debate (which I really think needs to cool down a bit), is that just because someone calls themselves 'Christian' or 'Wiccan' or whatnot, doesn't mean that they're moral people.
I've seen good, solid Christian folk lie, cheat and steal if it would get them ahead in some way. Likewise, I've seen some supposed 'Wiccans' who have abused children in truly horrible ways, and then hidden behind 'religious belief' as an excuse.
I'm not now, nor have I ever said that Christians as a whole are immoral; I'm only pointing out that not *every* person claiming to be Christian (or pagan, for that matter) is going to be a 'moral' person, no matter how they 'got religion'.
And, as I said above, I think this debate needs to cool down a bit -- let's take a step back and have a few deep calming breaths, okay, folks?
Last edited by FredNotBob; 01-04-2008 at 08:19 PM..
NO matter how you paint it, you will never make it OK for someone else to inject themselves in to the decision of what I do with my body.
As I said, no one is saying that YOU personally have to have an abortion, just stay out of other peoples decision.
Its a part of your body, not really your body. It becomes its own when it becomes a life. At that point, you are a caretaker. It no longer is "your body", but rather a body "you share" for the baby.
That said, here is an interesting twist to consider. You have heard of joined twins correct? that are born and joined in a manner to which makes them one? It could be in various ways, but you get the point.
If one decides to kill the other (providing what they share is not going to kill them both when one dies), are they wrong, did they commit murder? Technically, much like a mother and a child, they are one body and as you suggest, nobody has authority over your body correct? So would that be legal? If not, why? And why is this any different than a mother and child?
As you are thinking of your answers, be sure to think about the issue of basically arguing over the details to justify the action.
Gravity can be measured. It's proven. Evolution is not. It's a theory. It's simple.
And you seem to forget that creationism is NOT being taught and that's my point. The theory of evolution is being taught as "how it happened period" in our schools. We are told we are not tollerant, even when we are not tollerated. That is called hypocrisy.
Get it?
Would you please enlighten those of us who don't find it so simple. Please explain how gravitational theory is measured and proven, and evolution theory is not?
Morality without action is nothing hence, it's not morality.
Can you be moral and still commit crimes? Are you moral? Do you always drive the speed limit?
Being more "moral" won't = less laws.. ever.
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