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AH . . . LadyIce . . . true to your name, I see. That the magnificence and impossible to fully conceive and comprehend majesty and scope of what you call "Nature" is "insufficiently Godly" for you to acknowledge it as a tacit belief in God is a major tragedy of human hubris. Nice to hear from you too. Peace.
I don't believe I was addressing you Mystic but if you identify so completely with the posting style I mentioned that you feel compelled to reply to me, then perhaps that's something you should contemplate. If I ever need an example of hubris , I need only look to you. Peace to you too.
AREQUIPA...here is the "logic" in Mystics concept...I found it to be the most logical, sensible, and reasonable evidence of "God" I've ever seen anywhere. Possibly, others have presented it in the past, but I doubt in as exquisitely simple and incontrovertible a manner:
There exists "something"...the empirical evidence is that matter and energy does, in fact, exist.
We also KNOW OBJECTIVELY that "something" has the ability to further create, to establish the "laws" that control that which it has created, and it even provides what is necessary to maintain and sustain that creation. These are the KNOWN ATTRIBUTES of that "something"...not "speculated", not "believed", but objective and definitive, SCIENTIFICALLY proven attributes.
The basic attributes known to define a "God"...is to be able to create, control, maintain, and sustain matter and energy, completely through indigenous power without assistance or accomplice from any other force.
That aforementioned "something" has all those attributes...the primary being CREATOR.
Whatever other "label" that anyone wants to assign to that "something"...be it "Nature", "The Universe", "All that Exists", "Great Spirit", "Higher Power"...it IS a CREATOR...and it IS, by it's KNOWN attributes, definitively, a GOD.
Thus a CREATOR/GOD exists...and exists as that "Something", which is "Everything". Other "assigned attributes" that have been pinned on it, that are disputable/debatable not withstanding...A CREATOR/GOD EXISTS.
AH . . . Grasshopper . . . you make this old man smile in gratitude for any impact you feel I may have had on your views. Thank you, GldnRule . . . you are a very insightful fellow. Be well,
Mystic
I don't believe I was addressing you Mystic but if you identify so completely with the posting style I mentioned that you feel compelled to reply to me, then perhaps that's something you should contemplate. If I ever need an example of hubris , I need only look to you. Peace to you too.
My hubris IS legendary! . . . or so I have been told.
No I was not there, but God was there for creation, since he created everything. And each other event that you have mentioned were witnessed and written down. These individual eye-witness accounts were compiled in what we now call the bible.
Faith is evidence, evidence of what you cannot see. And the evidence we find like bones and rocks are interpreted and interpretations are directed by our presupositions. And presupositions are just that pre-supposed beliefs. My belief just happens to be that God created everything like he said in the bible and you believe that you are just a variation of a chimpanzee.
Well it can't not be true either. Do you have proof God doesn't exist? Nope. So you can't say we are under a delusional if you can't even prove he does not exist.
The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim in the first place. In other words, you must prove there is a god.
The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim in the first place. In other words, you must prove there is a god.
Another one of the denialists! Are you are a solipsist? If NOT then there is plenty of proof of God's EXISTENCE. It is God's many absurd and silly "attributes" you actually deny. Try to get it straight.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 08-08-2010 at 09:19 PM..
Originally Posted by Nikk Snipped to emphasize a point....My belief just happens to be that God created everything like he said in the bible and you believe that you are just a variation of a chimpanzee.
Nikk I suggest you go back a few posts and check out that documentary I linked to...Near the end of it there is an explanation of why our brains are larger than a chimps brain...As it happens almost all of our DNA is identical to a chimps, but researchers discovered one of these identical strands was damaged in two places in humans. This broken strand is the one that sends the message of how to build the muscle we use to close our jaws...The exact same strand is not damaged in chimps or the other apes....The other apes have huge muscles to close their jaws, while we humans have very small muscles to perform this function. Consequently the other ape's bite force is several times more powerful than ours...
How does this effect brain size, you ask...Bear with me...In a chimp for instance these huge muscles are attached high on the skull, and exert a tremendous pressure on the many bony expansion plates of the skull causing them to fuse together by the age of three....This allows no further growth of their brain.
In a human because we have much smaller and weaker muscles doing the same job the bone plates in our skulls do not completely fuse till we are about twenty. This allows our brain to continue to grow till then.
Science I think now has the ability to replace that undamaged DNA strand in a chimp with the identical, but damaged strand from a human, but I doubt if they will...
This is a great link from Scientific American Magazine and is written by Lawrence M. Krauss.
United States adults are less willing to accept the BIG BANG and EVOLUTION as factual than the adults in most other industrialized nations.
When presented with the statement "Human beings as we know them today, developed from earlier species of animals"......just 45% of Adult Americans responded "Yes". Contrast this affirmitive number with Japan...78%; Europe...70%; China...69% and South Korea...64%.
Only 33% of U.S. adults agree that the Universe began with an initial explosion i.e. The Big Bang.
According to a 2009 PEW Survey 31% of Adult Americans agree that "humans and all living things have existed in their present form since the beginning of time". So much for dog and other animal selective breeding, plant cross pollination and bacteria evolving to resist Penicillin and many other antibiotics.
Here is the link to this fascinating article and other informative links relating to this thread.
Hmmmm..WHEN SOME RELIGIOUS BELIEFS BECOME DANGEROUS????......apply the same ideal to science and the atomic or nuclear Bombs they have made in abundance....Just have to push a button....and all hell breaks loose!...Thanks to science eh...
And let us not forget the Auto and airoplanes, trains and other pollution devices devised to kill the planet and turn it into a biohazrdious estate, with your support of course...
Another one of the denialists! Are you are a solipsist? If NOT then there is plenty of proof of God's EXISTENCE. It is God's many absurd and silly "attributes" you actually deny. Try to get it straight.
Although you repeatedly like to avoid it, what some of us do not agree with you about IS one of those absurd silly attributes that you claim for your god......sentience
AREQUIPA...here is the "logic" in Mystics concept...I found it to be the most logical, sensible, and reasonable evidence of "God" I've ever seen anywhere. Possibly, others have presented it in the past, but I doubt in as exquisitely simple and incontrovertible a manner:
There exists "something"...the empirical evidence is that matter and energy does, in fact, exist.
We also KNOW OBJECTIVELY that "something" has the ability to further create, to establish the "laws" that control that which it has created, and it even provides what is necessary to maintain and sustain that creation. These are the KNOWN ATTRIBUTES of that "something"...not "speculated", not "believed", but objective and definitive, SCIENTIFICALLY proven attributes.
The basic attributes known to define a "God"...is to be able to create, control, maintain, and sustain matter and energy, completely through indigenous power without assistance or accomplice from any other force.
That aforementioned "something" has all those attributes...the primary being CREATOR.
Whatever other "label" that anyone wants to assign to that "something"...be it "Nature", "The Universe", "All that Exists", "Great Spirit", "Higher Power"...it IS a CREATOR...and it IS, by it's KNOWN attributes, definitively, a GOD.
Thus a CREATOR/GOD exists...and exists as that "Something", which is "Everything". Other "assigned attributes" that have been pinned on it, that are disputable/debatable not withstanding...A CREATOR/GOD EXISTS.
This is simply a rhetorical trick to paste God onto the material universe using the illogical 'Argument from ignorance' - "we cannot imagine how this could have come about without 'something' having done it". Immediately you are into assuming a Creative entity which is what you had set out to prove in the first place. Circular argument. Illogic.
I saw that clearly Arq
Quote:
:
As I say, I understand your point - The implication of a Creator by the existence of a Creation should be a given and we should reason from there.
and Mystic endorsed it "A ray of hope."
But since that is not a justified logical assumption, Mystic can ony resort to insults.
The whole illogical swindle, mate, is an old one - the 'Leap of faith'.
(1) Prove a sorta god - anything will do. The Universe, Dark matter, Universal constant, Quantum and say (with an angelically innocent expression) 'It's very big and wonderful - surely we can call it 'God'?
(2) That agreed (if I'm fool enough) the next step is to argue that 'God' would want to communicate with It's creation (you'll note 'His' kept in reserve for a switch when no-one's looking).
"You are assuming the reality of His/Its EXISTENCE simply by accepting reality as not a solipsist's (1) dream."
and (3) trot out the Bible which tells us about 'God'. And Mystic admits as much here.
"I am perfectly forthcoming about my BELIEFS . . . WHEN we get to that stage. We are NOT there yet for me ."
No. I have to be tricked into this God - label first. Mystic knows very well that this is a Fallacy
"The only attributes we are talking about at this stage are the ones we have established scientifically . . . and they are impressively Godly to say the least."
We already came to the conclusion that the difference is a mind that can plan ahead rather than forces that react to conditions. That's a big difference and that's why 'Creator - god' is not justified unless one can show that is what happens. Mystic cannot and never has. He assumes it as an a priori given for no other reason than he believes it.
And that's why his protestation of science, no belief involved, the 'Undeniable' and snarling at the logic that shows his trick up is so much hogwash. That's why he froths at 'natural' because it shows up the trick -equivocation - which he is pulling.
Quite apart from that, his lack of logic is shown by the fact that he had forgotton what was actually being discussed. It wasn't whether 'God' exists or not (though he couldn't help slipping into that argument) but about who was making assumptions.
I make none. He does. He thinks they are 'obvious' but I show they are far from obvious and are based on the trick of taking the material universe, and applying the God - label with the unproven assumption of a planning mind, because that is the difference and that is what he has up his sleeve. I know, because I've seen it before.
It is trick and when he is caught at it, he resorts to abuse.
If you are impressed by that, because he dresses up your Faith in impressive - looking scientific jargon, good luck to you.
(1) The solipsism nonsense is a laughably transparent red herring. This is about adding unproven attributes (Forward planning) to the universe we see, not about pretending that the universe is a figment of our imagination. Look at Mystic's trickery and attempts to fudge the issue. Look and learn.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-09-2010 at 03:59 AM..
Reason: A few addition, quotes, spelling corrections, exposure of dishonesty..
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Peace to you too. 
. . . or so I have been told.
