Contradictions in Bible History (prophecies, Nazareth, evidence, Old Testament)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
1 Samuel 17:49 “David put his hand in his bag, took out a stone, slung it, and struck the Philistine on his forehead; the stone sank into his forehead, and he fell face down on the ground.” (NRSV)
2 Samuel 21:19 "Then there was another battle with the Philistines at Gob; and Elhanan son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite, killed Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam” (NRSV)
This is an interesting contradiction. It was so obvious that the editors of the King James Version inserted the phrase “brother of Goliath” in 2 Sam 21 to cover it up. But the original Hebrew (available on line) says nothing about a "brother of Goliath."
Correct translations, such as the New Revised Standard Version and the New American Bible are made from the original languages and the oldest texts available. They say nothing about "a brother" either.
Those whose belief system cannot admit contradictions in scripture generally quote very lengthy explanations from those of similar persuasion trying to prove that these obvious contradictions don't exist.
But they do.
But simply reading the passages in the original Hebrew (using an interlinear translation unless one can read Hebrew) or an accurate translation demonstrates what the original writing said, and therefore clearly demonstrate the contradictions.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 01-14-2011 at 07:33 AM..
Reason: eliminated sixe inserts
1Ch 20:5 And there is again war with the Philistines, and Elhanan son of Jair smites Lahmi, brother of Goliath the Gittite, the wood of whose spear [is] like a beam of weavers.
2Sa 21:19 And the battle is again in Gob with the Philistines, and Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim, the Beth-Lehemite, smites [a brother of] Goliath the Gittite, and the wood of his spear [is] like a beam of weavers.
1Ch 20:5 And there is again war with the Philistines, and Elhanan son of Jair smites Lahmi, {brother of Goliath the Gittite,} the wood of whose spear [is] like a beam of weavers.
2Sa 21:19 And the battle is again in Gob with the Philistines, and Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim, the Beth-Lehemite, smites [a brother of] Goliath the Gittite, and the wood of his spear [is] like a beam of weavers.
Yawn, no contradiction.
Again, you have to know about Qere and Ketib.
RESPONSE:
Once again, there is no [a brother of] in the Hebrew text. That's an interpolation found in the JKV Bible to try to mask the contradiction.
When recognized in a text, these interpolations are usually bracketed.
Perhaps, you'll cite a Hebrew Old Testament that has any such reference.
The passage in 2 Samuel referring to " Elhananson of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite” is significant. David too was a member of this clan which is also referred to as Bethlehem-Ephrathah
Micah 5: "But you, O Bethlehem of Ephrathah, who are one of the little clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to rule in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days."
This is a description of King David who is first described as his father’s youngest son and a shepherd
However, Matthew misquotes Micah thus: (Matthew 2: 5-6) “ They told him, ‘In Bethlehem of Judea; for so it has been written by the prophet: “And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who is to shepherd my people Israel.” ’
Matthew altered the original passage to try to make it a prophecy of Jesus. Among other things. He changed a clan into a city so Jesus could be associated with David.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 01-14-2011 at 11:16 AM..
Reason: removed SIZE's
1 Chron 20:5-8 "Again there was war with the Philistines; and Elhanan son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam. 6Again there was war at Gath, where there was a man of great size, who had six fingers on each hand, and six toes on each foot, twenty-four in number; he also was descended from the giants. 7When he taunted Israel, Jonathan son of Shimea, David’s brother, killed him. 8These were descended from the giants in Gath; they fell by the hand of David and his servants”.
2 Sam 21:19-21 “Then there was another battle with the Philistines at Gob; and Elhanan son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite, killed Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam. There was again war at Gath, where there was a man of great size, who had six fingers on each hand, and six toes on each foot, twenty-four in number; he too was descended from the giants. When he taunted Israel, Jonathan son of David’s brother Shimei, killed him.
1 Sam 17:50-51 So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone, striking down the Philistine and killing him; there was no sword in David’s hand. 51Then David ran and stood over the Philistine; he grasped his sword, drew it out of its sheath, and killed him; then he cut off his head with it.
Let's see:
1 Chron 20 says that “Elhanan son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite"
2 Sam 21: 19-21 says that “Elhanan son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite, killed Goliath the Gittite
1 Sam 17:51 says that “ThenDavid ran and stood over the Philistine; he grasped his sword, drew it out of its sheath, and killed him.”
It look’s like Elhanon killed both Goliath and his brother. Maybe the Philistine David killed was still another Philistine, and not Goliath or his brother, you think
“The King James (KJV) translation altered 2 Samuel 21:19 (in line with 1 Chronicles), adding 'the brother of' [in italics to indicate that this was not an exact translation], but most other English translations of the Book of Samuel seem to have more faithfully followed the Hebrew Bible version - in other words allowing the paradox to stand.”
Once again, there is no [a brother of] in the Hebrew text. That's an interpolation found in the JKV Bible to try to mask the contradiction.
When recognized in a text, these interpolations are usually bracketed.
Perhaps, you'll cite a Hebrew Old Testament that has any such reference.
Once again, you need to know about Qere and Ketib and copyist errors.
Though I don't agree with this web site on their eternal torment stance I thought I'd copy and past what they said about this problem. The quote is in this color :
Who killed Goliath, David or Elhanan?
1 Samuel 17:50 and 2 Samuel 21:19
1.David did (1 Samuel 17:50) - "Thus David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone, and he struck the Philistine and killed him; but there was no sword in David’s hand."
2.Elhanan did (2 Sam. 21:19)- "And there was war with the Philistines again at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam."
The answer lies in two areas. 1 Chronicles 20:5 says, "And there was war with the Philistines again, and Elhanan the son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam." This is the correct answer; namely, that Elhanan killed Goliath's brother.
Second, it appears there was a copyist error in 2 Samuel 21:19. According to Gleason Archer's Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties on page 179, it says,
1.The sign of the direct object, which in Chronicles comes just before "Lahmi," was '-t; the copyist mistook it for b-t or b-y-t ("Beth") and thus got Bet hal-Lahmi ("the Bethlehemite") out of it.
2.He misread the word for "brother" ('-h) as the sign of the direct object ('-t) right before g-l-y-t ("Goliath"). Thus he made "Goliath" the object of "killed" (wayyak), instead of the "brother" of Goliath (as the Chronicles passage does).
3.The copyist misplaced the word for "weavers" ('-r-g-ym) so as to put it right after "Elhanan" as his patronymic (ben Y-'-r-y'-r--g-ym, or ben ya 'arey 'ore -gim -- "the son of the forests of weavers" -- a most unlikely name for anyone's father!). In Chronicles the 'ore grim ("weavers") comes right after menor ("a beam of ") -- thus making perfectly good sense.
Therefore, we see that 2 Samuel 21:19 had a copyist error and 1 Chronicles 20:5 is the correct information. Who killed Goliath, David or Elhanan? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Umm, Matthew didn't misquote Matthew 2:5-6. Read his account again.
RESPONSE:
Read it again. Matthew 2 misquotes Micah 5.
Micah 5: "But you, O Bethlehem of Ephrathah, who are one of the little clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to rule in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days."
Matthew 2: "“And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who is to shepherd my people Israel.” ’
Micah states a clan. Matthew names a city. A clan is a group of people, not the name of a city.
Micah 5: "But you, O Bethlehem of Ephrathah, who are one of the little clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to rule in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days."
Matthew 2: "“And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who is to shepherd my people Israel.” ’
Micah states a clan. Matthew names a city. A clan is a group of people, not the name of a city.
ancient, I am not pulling your leg. I really mean this. Look again at Matthew's account and prove to yourself he did not misquote Micah.
Once again, you need to know about Qere and Ketib and copyist errors.
Though I don't agree with this web site on their eternal torment stance I thought I'd copy and past what they said about this problem. The quote is in this color :
Who killed Goliath, David or Elhanan?
1 Samuel 17:50 and 2 Samuel 21:19
1.David did (1 Samuel 17:50) - "Thus David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone, and he struck the Philistine and killed him; but there was no sword in David’s hand."
2.Elhanan did (2 Sam. 21:19)- "And there was war with the Philistines again at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam."
The answer lies in two areas. 1 Chronicles 20:5 says, "And there was war with the Philistines again, and Elhanan the son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam." This is the correct answer; namely, that Elhanan killed Goliath's brother.
. According to Gleason Archer's Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties on page 179, it says,
1.The sign of the direct object, which in Chronicles comes just before "Lahmi," was '-t; the copyist mistook it for b-t or b-y-t ("Beth") and thus got Bet hal-Lahmi ("the Bethlehemite") out of it.
2.He misread the word for "brother" ('-h) as the sign of the direct object ('-t) right before g-l-y-t ("Goliath"). Thus he made "Goliath" the object of "killed" (wayyak), instead of the "brother" of Goliath (as the Chronicles passage does).
3.The copyist misplaced the word for "weavers" ('-r-g-ym) so as to put it right after "Elhanan" as his patronymic (ben Y-'-r-y'-r--g-ym, or ben ya 'arey 'ore -gim -- "the son of the forests of weavers" -- a most unlikely name for anyone's father!). In Chronicles the 'ore grim ("weavers") comes right after menor ("a beam of ") -- thus making perfectly good sense.
Therefore, we see that 2 Samuel 21:19 had a copyist error and 1 Chronicles 20:5 is the correct information. Who killed Goliath, David or Elhanan? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
RESPONSE:
>>Second, it appears there was a copyist error in 2 Samuel 21:19<<
If true that would once again demonstrate the importance of obtaining translations made from the earliest extant scriptures in the original languages.
That's what the New Revised Standard Version and New American Bible have done.
Unfortunately, the King James Version and its clones have not, hence the [brother of] interpolation which I have demonstrated and referenced.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
