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It is always good to listen to the other side of the argument, rather than dismiss it as 'Oh well, that's just your belief..' or some such nonsense.
Amen.
One problem with many religious communities is they start to fall into groupthink. All they allow themselves to hear are messages that reinforce their beliefs. They gather each week, not to challenge the prevailing beliefs, but to reassure each other that their religion is true. If any brave person does have doubts or does raise issues that challenge the validity of the group's belief system, they are seen as "struggling with their faith" as if they are broken and need to be fixed instead of considering that the religious beliefs are the thing that is broken and needs to be fixed.
Skeptics and critics are our only protection against groupthink and the only way we can learn that we are on the wrong path if we indeed are on the wrong path. Extremist groups and cults work by reassuring each other that they are right while the rest of the world is wrong and they will not tolerate dissenting views or individuality in regards to going off and thinking your own thing if it disagrees with the group.
We must protect the freedom to have our own thoughts without feeling like we are inferior or sinful just because we don't believe what the group believes. We must give ourselves permission, nay, seek out evidence and arguments that may overturn our current worldview. It is the sifting process by which we can determine what is true among those beliefs we have been given.
We should be especially skeptical of the beliefs we were raised with, ones we absorbed before our critical skills had been developed. If we had been raised Muslim, we'd surely feel as strongly that Islam is the true religion as we do about the religion we were raised with. Why? Because of the groupthink religious communities encourage. They reinforce their beliefs by highlighting supporting evidence and tales of miracles and answered prayers and reasoning with their holy books, etc. They do not point out to each other all the evidence that threatens the validity of their beliefs. So, one should be especially skeptical of the beliefs one was raised with.
Groups sometimes fall into a style of thinking where the maintenance of the group’s cohesion and togetherness becomes all-important and results in very bad decision-making.
Janis (1972) defines it as "a way of deliberating that group members use when their desire for unanimity overrides their motivation to assess all available plans of action."
Eight symptoms of groupthink:
Illusion of invulnerability –Creates excessive optimism that encourages taking extreme risks.
Collective rationalization – Members discount warnings and do not reconsider their assumptions.
Belief in inherent morality – Members believe in the rightness of their cause and therefore ignore the ethical or moral consequences of their decisions.
Stereotyped views of out-groups – Negative views of “enemy” make effective responses to conflict seem unnecessary.
Direct pressure on dissenters – Members are under pressure not to express arguments against any of the group’s views.
Self-censorship – Doubts and deviations from the perceived group consensus are not expressed.
Illusion of unanimity – The majority view and judgments are assumed to be unanimous.
Self-appointed ‘mindguards’ – Members protect the group and the leader from information that is problematic or contradictory to the group’s cohesiveness, view, and/or decisions.
As a result, groups 'suffering' from group think are more likely to:
Like Mystic stated, it's all about perspective. Even Atheists or Republicans or Democrats fall into groupthink.
In Kierkegaard's book, "Training in Christianity" he states that being an individual is the hardest thing someone can do. I take that to mean, intellectually staying in the 'middle;' To revel in one's criticisms.
Granted, he was talking about his Lutheran faith and how he personally had broke away from the Danish Christendom, though I still think it's important that we all question our beliefs from time to time, if only to make them stronger.
Well...I'm Catholic and I don't have to.....wait a minute...
All I have to do is read the newspaper.
There is an important distinction between critical analysis and imposter's in the guise of what ever faith a person believes in.
The Catholic religion itself is the perfect representation of Christianity. Mostly all of the heresy's were formed in order to achieve a ..lax in steadfast observance to the always firm attempt to follow the way Christ put forward. No doubt about it. Imposter's are excommunicated .
The ..leaders are the martyrs and the mystics in full Catholic dedication through Jesus.... that says it all.
Hueffenhardt, I'm curious to know if you've read the "Jefferson Bible", and if so, what your thoughts of it are. Actually, anyone that wants to answer - feel free.
My 10 months in the Mormon world helps me understand your perspective, and I absolutely agree when someone starts to discuss negative info, they get shut down quickly.
Hueffenhardt, I'm curious to know if you've read the "Jefferson Bible", and if so, what your thoughts of it are. Actually, anyone that wants to answer - feel free.
I have not read it, but I have heard of it before. Why do you bring it up; what do you think it contributes?
I have not read it, but I have heard of it before. Why do you bring it up; what do you think it contributes?
Because in your op, you asked why trust the authors of the bible. Jefferson thought the same and that resulted in a heavily modified "bible." (more like Gospel) Which really gives a unique view of Jesus, moving one away from simply having the one-sided view you warned about. It was a very interesting read for me, your post reminded me of it and the fresh view.
Absolutely, for example, your beliefs are at odds with my monist, materialist beliefs. So, I have read and considered the evidence and arguments that you feel support your rejection of monism.
I would welcome your participation in the "Science has better answers" thread with GW and Arequipa as the issues with your position are brought to light.
Well...I'm Catholic and I don't have to.....wait a minute...
All I have to do is read the newspaper.
There is an important distinction between critical analysis and imposter's in the guise of what ever faith a person believes in.
The Catholic religion itself is the perfect representation of Christianity. Mostly all of the heresy's were formed in order to achieve a ..lax in steadfast observance to the always firm attempt to follow the way Christ put forward. No doubt about it. Imposter's are excommunicated .
The ..leaders are the martyrs and the mystics in full Catholic dedication through Jesus.... that says it all.
Let's check this against the list of behaviors listed earlier in the thread.
Quote:
As a result, groups 'suffering' from group think are more likely to:
Be dogmatic.
"The Catholic religion itself is the perfect representation of Christianity." Check.
Quote:
Justify irrational poor decisions.
"Imposter's are excommunicated." Check
Quote:
See their actions as highly moral.
"The ..leaders are the martyrs and the mystics in full Catholic dedication through Jesus." Check.
Quote:
Stereotype outsiders.
"Mostly all of the heresy's were formed in order to achieve a ..lax in steadfast observance to the always firm attempt to follow the way Christ put forward." Check
Thanks KC...If you can or anyone find something here I'm missing, please do point it out.I am very interested to know if I'm missing something...thats why in part I like these threads.
KC says...As a result, groups 'suffering' from group think are more likely to:
Be dogmatic.
Blue says....
So....dogmatic..websters, Assertion of Dogma &opinion...
Good , thankyou, theres no point in having a spiritual belief system in which an individual ..."cannot assert with confidence the principals to which meet the Doctrinal System"
.................Dogma.
KC says..Justify irrational poor decisions
Blue says...KC, I replied by commenting that imposter's to the Catholic Faith are excommunicated. Again ...excommunicated from Catholic Faith is a direct sever or dis-unite from communicating on behalf of Catholicism as well participation in sacrament. This is certainly not justification, excommunication is firm regulation.
KC Says..: "See Their actions highly moral"
Well KC...Catholosism is all about sacrifice and detachment of self in striving towards a virtuous life in charity and so forth. That is the message of Christ and he was the ultimate martyr.
So.....logically if you are going to suggest that people or martyrs(this would be your reference to my comment) who are murdered in their pursuit to this innocent and loving faith is not highly moral....then the comment also suggests that Christ was not highly moral.
KC says...Stereotype outsiders
To formalize or as you say stereotype outsiders I gather you are referring to my attachment of heretical activity to un-orthodox Christian belief system's". The definition of Heresy......
"opinion or doctrine contrary to the orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church, or to the accepted doctrine of any subject".
With above, as well the obvious doctrines in other Christian faith to be contrary in logical fact of their existence , my comment is completely accurate. As well, the over-whelming constitution of
heretical Christian belief systems simply came to be in order to facilitate less firm regulation....for example...married priests, multiple wives, elimination of celebration of Christs Last Supper in rememberance...the sacrament of penance...and so on.
In this thread, it is noticed that reading critical data with respects to a belief system is encouraged. Spirituality of course is the non-material essence of man.
The over all reason in attention to...spirituality is in the striving for inner peace as well harmony in this thing we call life. Christianity of course address's the objective as do other beliefs.
It is my belief that an individual is best served by a system of spirituality which.."gives the highest form of inspiration towards inner peace and has its chief objective in virtue
Virtue...is the way of Christ. If I have to explain that I will.
So...if a person is...brought up or introduced to a belief, whatever the belief.... and is ill-treated in the name of say...Catholosism through unjust representation....Catholosism would be almost impossible to embrace. Not because the faith is wrong, but the ...experience destroys progress based on emotion.
Therefore, the exercise in researching a persons faith is best served in...researching self.
Self objective in faith...... followed by the express foundation or reason.... of belief system.
I've probably been handed my hat in more churches than most people have during my thirty-eight years in the missionary field, and every time it was because I felt led to challenge a statement - okay, a lie that was masquerading as truth.
I agree that we should all 'test the spirits' to see if they be of God, but at present we have over 1,000 denominations in Christianity which claim exclusivity, as in they're the only ones who are saved and/or going to Heaven - and that includes the RCC. We have another thousand or so who don't claim exclusivity but still exist far apart from one another - and 'God hates divisions and sects.'
The Holy Spirit teaches us, as do The Father, and The Son, and we know in our hearts what 'Truth' is when we hear it because Yahweh has already written His Truth upon every human heart, which is why those who seek it recognize it. Our Lord Jesus is the Truth ('I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to The Father but by Me.' 2nd Corinthians 13.)
Believers didn't have books for the first 1,500 years AD, but they knew the truth when they heard it.
I disagree with the statement that it is necessary to read many books in order to ascertain the truth about God. All that is needed is prayer and an open heart - The Holy Spirit will do the rest.
As Watchman Nee said, 'If we fail in prayer, we fail in everything.' I believe that is a true statement.
Shalom Aleichem,
Mahrie.
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