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Tough crowd, huh Humble Witness? Fact is, you're just ANOTHER person coming through City Data to preach an old, tired, worn out brand that most of us have heard over and over again. In fact, some of used to use the same rhetoric in a past life (ex: Ilene Wright and myself) and can still blabber it in our sleep. I can guarantee you that not ONE person in this thread or on this particular forum will even give your request a second notice other than to show you how foolish, silly and porous it is.
For the same reason they keep posting Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius and Thallus as proof of a historical Jesus. They don't know that it has been dealt with before.
The counter to Pascal's wager is Islam. Truth to tell, holding up Hinduism and Buddhism as counters is not too effective because it seems the worst you would get is another life. This, if one was to take Pascal's wager, it is a toss - up between Christianity and Islam.
Our OP's argument that the right ne is known through personal experience is is no argument at all since anyone of any religion can claim that their 'god' speaks to them. It is just a delusion based on talking to yourself - I do it all the time. And practical proofs don't convince either as i have had both an answered prayer and a miraculous healing - both without either praying or even believing.
But, suppose that we got it down to a fifty - fifty choice between Christianity or Islam (which of the various denominations or sects can be set aside for the moment) why don't we atheists try to decide which to go for?
The answer is, one I discussed with Thom R sometime ago. As I recall it arose out f the problem of Evil and the hellfire threat and the sheer difficulty of believing that any god worth a damn would prepare a fiery eternal torture for the creation he'd made and nurtured just because of what they believed or didn't.
Thom shied away from hellfire and talked of separation from God and at worst some sort of purgatory. Frankly, I see Purgatory as a hellfire threat with remission for good behaviour and still makes God look frankly unjust and tyrannical.
Upshot is, that with the idea that one will seriously regret getting it wrong not really on the table, what does one gain from Pascal's wager? There is really nothing worth winning and no way to be sure of winning it
What one can lose is the one life we know we have and the case for giving up a life of reason and wide open options for a life of faith - based supposition and Dogmatic thinking is not good enough.
So I offer the reverse Pasacal's wager. It is better to live this life as though there wasn't another coming. If you are wrong, then you have had a good life here and the bonus of another, so you have a double win. If you are right, and there's nothing after death, then you have at least made the most of this life.
If there is a god who is sitting in judgement, then it's a good bet that He won't blame us for using the wits we were given (it was His decision to NOT make us as faith- programmed robots and then provide or permit such a muddle of conflicting and flawed evidence that no-one could decide on a religion other than by being irrational) to decide that there was not a good case for Faith and at worst, would give us one last chance to believe in either Jehovah or Allah (or one of the others). As I see it, by NOT believing, you can't lose.
...The Bible says that those who reject God will be rejected...
Well, it's a good thing I don't reject God, then.
Lack of belief in something is not rejection. Now, if I said "I know there is no God", that is something different.
I see no evidence to compel me to believe that God exists - this is not rejection.
Furthermore, if I live what the majority of people would consider a "good" life, and your God codemns me for nothing other than lack of belief, then it is not a God worthy of my worship in the first place.
What if you're wrong about Marduk or Mithra or Allah? What if we're all wrong and we're supposed to be worshipping a god that was created on another planet in our galaxy?
There's just no talking to someone who believes he/she has heard God speak, physically or spiritually. I was one of those people ten years ago, and there is no evidence or line of questioning that would have changed my mind.
I don't understand why these sorts of threads are permitted when their purpose is clearly proselytizing. Maybe atheists go over to the Christian forum and start nonsense. I don't know. I don't go over there. I don't think it should be allowed in either forum. It's rude and obviously not started in order to have a real discussion.
There's just no talking to someone who believes he/she has heard God speak, physically or spiritually. I was one of those people ten years ago, and there is no evidence or line of questioning that would have changed my mind.
I don't understand why these sorts of threads are permitted when their purpose is clearly proselytizing. Maybe atheists go over to the Christian forum and start nonsense. I don't know. I don't go over there. I don't think it should be allowed in either forum. It's rude and obviously not started in order to have a real discussion.
Pepps, personally I don't mind these threads at all. It kinda "puts it out there" to be completely thrashed and also, they are entertaining IF you care to read 'em and respond to them. lol
There's just no talking to someone who believes he/she has heard God speak, physically or spiritually. I was one of those people ten years ago, and there is no evidence or line of questioning that would have changed my mind.
I don't understand why these sorts of threads are permitted when their purpose is clearly proselytizing. Maybe atheists go over to the Christian forum and start nonsense. I don't know. I don't go over there. I don't think it should be allowed in either forum. It's rude and obviously not started in order to have a real discussion.
Obviously something changed your mind. Could it have been helped by conversations such as this?
I also don't really mind these threads. After all, it is really the only good area for A&A plus Christians, plus all the others to converse.
I also do not mind the rudeness and sarcasm. I think it inevitable when discussing closely held beliefs in an anonymous forum.
But back to the main thrust of the thread. Pascal's wager has been thoroughly discredited. The OP is trying to meld PW to personal revelation. That is simply not a very convincing argument. It largely boils down to: I know something that you don't know, and if you don't believe me you are going to be in BIG trouble.
It largely boils down to: I know something that you don't know, and if you don't believe me you are going to be in BIG trouble.
Yup...that's exactly what they are saying.
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Fact is, you're just ANOTHER person coming through City Data to preach an old, tired, worn out brand that most of us have heard over and over again. In fact, some of used to use the same rhetoric in a past life (ex: Ilene Wright and myself) and can still blabber it in our sleep. I can guarantee you that not ONE person in this thread or on this particular forum will even give your request a second notice other than to show you how foolish, silly and porous it is.
