Did a World-Wide Flood in Noah's day Happen? (ghosts, Christians, fanatics)
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In the creation myths which were preserved by the Aztec and other Nahua peoples, the central tenet was that there had been four worlds, or "Suns", previous to the present universe. These earlier worlds and their inhabitants had been created, then destroyed by the catastrophic action of leading deity figures. The present world is the fifth sun
Good post, granpa!
I haven't read the entire thread yet, so forgive me if this has been mentioned - but this is the first post I have come across (I think) that references the many flood myths that the ancient Near East had - as well as the many flood myths that non-ancient Near Easterners had. A previous apologetic post mentioned them in passing as "proof" of traditions dispersed after the Tower of Bable incident.
As a bit of historical tidbit, prior to the 1800s Christians would frequently explain away rival myths (the Greeks, etc.) by claiming that a) these stories were told AFTER the Bible supposedly told it's story, and b) these stories witness to the truth of the "original" flood story, as recorded in the Bible. This was standard operating procedure: "we have the original tradition, and the rest are copycats."
Then George Smith, an amateur scholar in Assyriology, made an astounding discovery: the Gilgamesh Tablets. What really blew people's minds back then was not the Gilgamesh story itself, but the fact that it recorded a Flood story that a) occurs chronologically before the biblical flood story, and b) shares so many details with the later Biblical story, that it's clear who copied who. This was one of the most amazing discoveries of the 1800s and it revolutionized religion, science and how people viewed the Bible. No longer could believers claim primacy with their account of what was now revealed to be a familiar motif in the ancient Near East.
Anyways - my point (and again, forgive me if this has already been written) is that it's amazing that over 100 years after the discovery of these tablets and the amazing changes it wrought in society, there are still people unfamiliar with it, or in denial of it. Amazing. For those who wish to read Smith's account of it all, you can get the book for free here: The Chaldean Account of Genesis - from 1876. George Smith, amateur, spending hours upon hours after his normal, boring job - Georve Smith decoding tablets (and finding them) should be an inspiration to anyone.
[quote=SeekerSA;23382729]
The rising of melt water from receding ice caps happened. No one can really deny that. However to extrapolate that to mean the reasons behind the flood myths is a stretch.[/quote]
A few decades ago we had no idea of the existence if the Ice ages nor of the billions of acres of land lost to the sea. We nowknow but we cannot bring ourselves to admit that our forefathers were right on the issue of the global flood !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
With the Indonesian tsunami, there were testimonies of folklore passed down of the sea receding followed by great waves. The folk that knew this ran for higher ground and survived. Some islands the wave washed it clean - no survivors. Folk will eventually re inhabit and in time will get wiped out again.
As you say, the ones to be wiped out would be those that would not believe the legend of the receding sea which brings back the huge waves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Whoppers is more studies in the OT texts and they are not as old as we are led to believe they are. As we pick through the debris of what was and the overwhelming contra-evidence, the flood of Noah depreciates to a local event with bells and whistles added for dramatic effect.
The same can be said of the Greek, Sumerian and 250 more flood myths from all over the world. Everytime that our savage forefathers met with heavy rain, tsunami or flooding of the local river, they thought that the entire world had been flooded. No! I entertain a better opinion of the forefathers of humanity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
The concept that some of the messianic texts trace back through Noah to Adam should survive this but the real conclusion to come to is that christianity just follows the creation and evolution of earlier man made gods.
There are man made gods (the gods that the theologians produced) and there are god made men according to popular traditions.
They both exist/existed: immaterial gods made by man and men made by fleshy gods.
Please bear in mind that according to popular traditions the gods produced men by raping women.
But... we are way off topic here, if you are interested in the subject of the god made mankind you may have a look in an article of mine in this pdf file http://dtango.files.wordpress.com/20...er-part-i1.pdf and leave a comment in the thread entitled http://www.city-data.com/forum/relig...at-mother.html
The same can be said of the Greek, Sumerian and 250 more flood myths from all over the world. Everytime that our savage forefathers met with heavy rain, tsunami or flooding of the local river, they thought that the entire world had been flooded. No! I entertain a better opinion of the forefathers of humanity.
You sure can, but don't expect everybody else to join in the worshipping of such ridiculousness. Remember, we also, supposedly, had monkeys that could fly over oceans while carrying a whole mountain on one hand... forefathers of humanity ought to be trusted. No?
A few decades ago we had no idea of the existence if the Ice ages nor of the billions of acres of land lost to the sea. We nowknow but we cannot bring ourselves to admit that our forefathers were right on the issue of the global flood !!
If you said "a" global flood or multiple flood stories I can agree.
Quote:
As you say, the ones to be wiped out would be those that would not believe the legend of the receding sea which brings back the huge waves.
I was thinking of a particular island the US marines landed on, there was nothing left other than a lone mosque.
Quote:
The same can be said of the Greek, Sumerian and 250 more flood myths from all over the world. Everytime that our savage forefathers met with heavy rain, tsunami or flooding of the local river, they thought that the entire world had been flooded. No! I entertain a better opinion of the forefathers of humanity.
These are flood stories and many stories cannot extrapolate to Noah's flood and thereby give credence to the rest of the bible.
Quote:
There are man made gods (the gods that the theologians produced) and there are god made men according to popular traditions.
They both exist/existed: immaterial gods made by man and men made by fleshy gods.
Please bear in mind that according to popular traditions the gods produced men by raping women.
So what is so different between YHWE having sex with Mary and earlier legends? I know it does not explicitly state the age of Mary but some have postulated she was 13-14. That does not only spell coercive rape but also paedophilia to an extent of the so called loving father.
Of course xians will argue that this was a holy spirit and there was no real copulation.
What the folk are unwilling to concede is that jesus fits the exact Greco/Roman/Norse pattern for demi-gods, half god-half man. Further investigation reveals that the new all encompassing man-god simply absorbed earlier man-god legends and thus whatever jesus may have really been, morphed into a demi-god and titled son of god, son of man.
What gave this new man-god legs was it became a state religion and propagated via collusion between the papacy and the decree of kings in royalty. It was a socio/political system and still works today. Just look how blurred the lines between religion and politics are in the US and tell me I am wrong. You can add into that mix the entertainment industry.
Politicians act like clowns and seek their 15 minutes of fame
Entertainers want to be politicians (they usually make more sense anyway)
The religious leaders lean both ways, entertainment and politics.
You sure can, but don't expect everybody else to join in the worshipping of such ridiculousness. Remember, we also, supposedly, had monkeys that could fly over oceans while carrying a whole mountain on one hand... forefathers of humanity ought to be trusted. No?
Yes, and we modern-day people have writings of some guy called Clark Kent that could stop speeding trains and bullets too. But we as well as those ancient people knew it was just for entertainment purposes. No one really believed back then that monkeys could carry a whole mountain on one hand just as no one today really believes Clark Kent could stop a bullet or speeding train or leap tall building in a single bound. At least not any sane person. But they never took the world-wide flood of Noah's day as being make-believe.
I haven't read the entire thread yet, so forgive me if this has been mentioned - but this is the first post I have come across (I think) that references the many flood myths that the ancient Near East had - as well as the many flood myths that non-ancient Near Easterners had. A previous apologetic post mentioned them in passing as "proof" of traditions dispersed after the Tower of Bable incident.
As a bit of historical tidbit, prior to the 1800s Christians would frequently explain away rival myths (the Greeks, etc.) by claiming that a) these stories were told AFTER the Bible supposedly told it's story, and b) these stories witness to the truth of the "original" flood story, as recorded in the Bible. This was standard operating procedure: "we have the original tradition, and the rest are copycats."
The Genesis world-wide flood pre-dates the Gilgamesh story:
"The earliest Sumerian poems are now generally considered to be distinct stories rather than parts of a single epic.[2]:45 They date from as early as the Third Dynasty of Ur (2150-2000 BC).[2]:41-42 The earliest Akkadian versions are dated to the early second millennium[2]:45, most probably in the eighteenth or seventeenth century BC, when one or more authors drew upon used existing literary material to create a single epic.[3] The "standard" Akkadian version, consisting of 12 tablets, was edited by Sin-liqe-unninni sometime between 1300 and 1000 BC and was found in the library of Ashurbanipal in Nineveh." See Epic of Gilgamesh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Now the OP is suggesting Noah was smeltering vast amounts of iron ore two thousand or so years before being first discovered .Iron Age was about 2,000 BC at earliest...
I think the Flood is possible with a handful of miracles otherwise I can't crunch the numbers.
It was re-discovered around 2,000 BC after the world-wide flood.
Genesis 4:22. תוּבל־קין tûbal-qayı̂n, Tubal-qain, “brass-smith” He was a forger of every tool of copper and iron:
Gen 4:21-22 And the name of his brother is Jubal. He becomes the
forefather of all who handle the harp and the shepherd's pipe. (22) And
Zillah, moreover, she bears Tubalcain, a forger of every tool of copper and
iron. And the sister of Tubalcain is Naamah.
Yes, and we modern-day people have writings of some guy called Clark Kent that could stop speeding trains and bullets too. But we as well as those ancient people knew it was just for entertainment purposes. No one really believed back then that monkeys could carry a whole mountain on one hand just as no one today really believes Clark Kent could stop a bullet or speeding train or leap tall building in a single bound. At least not any sane person. But they never took the world-wide flood of Noah's day as being make-believe.
Incorrect. All you're doing is calling a myth, a myth to promote an idea that the myth you believe in, really happened... because you were made to believe so.
For example Koalas can only eat certain Eucalyptus leaves off certain gum trees and those leaves have to be new young leaves. How could Noah keep a constant supply of gum leaves to feed the Koalas when those trees only grow in Australia.
Obviously Noah had the proper food for the koalas or we wouldn't have Koalas after the world-wide flood.
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