Did a World-Wide Flood in Noah's day Happen? (Hebrew, Israelites, influence)
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In the case of evolution it is all based on beautiful paintings of cells coming out of pond skum like a teeny slithering reptile. Then the paintings show little chimps to larger, larger still, larger still to erect hominoids to, whalla! modern day humans! All based on fanciful imagination. Not one bit of evidence whatsoever. No, not even a little. No actual proof.
Some scientists would disagree with you on that last statement. It obviously worked or you would not be here. At least I have historic evidence of Noah's ark and the world-wide flood. You have nothing but theories of evolution based on fancy imaginations run wild.
I don't remember if you mentioned it. But I'm curious - what's your denomination? Are you a Jehovah's Witness?
Anything, when writing fiction, facts don't really matter.
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What they wrote about Christ is true. What Christ said is true. Just because you don't believe it does not mean it isn't. That is just your problem. Millions of highly intelligent people around the world would disagree with you. That in itself does not make the New Testament or Old Testament right, but I say that to show you that you are in a minority and a very very very teeny tiny minority at that.
Sorry, you have just been duped and appeal to minority proves nothing. In fact, your ilk are the minority believing this YEC rubbish.
Start a poll in the xian forum and test your peers about the flood and YEC. It will be interesting.
In the case of evolution it is all based on beautiful paintings of cells coming out of pond skum like a teeny slithering reptile. Then the paintings show little chimps to larger, larger still, larger still to erect hominoids to, whalla! modern day humans! All based on fanciful imagination. Not one bit of evidence whatsoever. No, not even a little. No actual proof.
On the contrary, there are mountains of evidence. Mountains much larger than Ararat.
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Some scientists would disagree with you on that last statement.
Uhm no, actually they wouldn't. Not REAL scientists in any case.
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It obviously worked or you would not be here. At least I have historic evidence of Noah's ark and the world-wide flood.
No, you don't. Even if you had evidence it wouldn't be for the Biblical flood but the one in the Epic of Gilgamesh. It would not support your Bible's god but the Gods of ancient Sumeria.
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You have nothing but theories of evolution based on fancy imaginations run wild.
LOL
You have nothing but the plagiarized scribblings of bronze age ignorants. We have the permanent record of the Earth itself sketched in millions-of-years old stone.
What they wrote about Christ is true. What Christ said is true.
So say the believers.
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Just because you don't believe it does not mean it isn't.
Just because you believe it doesn't mean it is.
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That is just your problem. Millions of highly intelligent people around the world would disagree with you.
..and your problem is that many more millions of highly intelligent people around the word disagree with you. In fact, many more millions of intelligent people disagree with you than agree with you.
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That in itself does not make the New Testament or Old Testament right, but I say that to show you that you are in a minority and a very very very teeny tiny minority at that.
..but he isn't in the minority because he is part of the two-thirds of the world that consider the OT and NT to be untrue. It's actually you that is in the minority.
The Genesis world-wide flood pre-dates the Gilgamesh story:
"The earliest Sumerian poems are now generally considered to be distinct stories rather than parts of a single epic.[2]:45 They date from as early as the Third Dynasty of Ur (2150-2000 BC).[2]:41-42 The earliest Akkadian versions are dated to the early second millennium[2]:45, most probably in the eighteenth or seventeenth century BC, when one or more authors drew upon used existing literary material to create a single epic.[3] The "standard" Akkadian version, consisting of 12 tablets, was edited by Sin-liqe-unninni sometime between 1300 and 1000 BC and was found in the library of Ashurbanipal in Nineveh." See Epic of Gilgamesh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You need to re-read what you're quoting.
"Many distinct sources exist over a 2000 year time-frame....
The earliest Sumerian poems... [can be dated] from as early as the Third Dynasty of Ur (2150-2000 BC)...
The discovery of artifacts (c.a. 2600 BC)....has lent credibility to the historical existence of Gilgamesh." (from the same Webpage)
Historians date the first settlement of Sumer to between 4500 and 4000 BC. (from Wikipedia on "Sumer" since that is your primary source, apparantly). Gilgamesh, as a historical figure (c.a. 2600 BC), was just one king in a long line of many stretching back to between 4500 and 4000 BC. So - the existence of Sumer is already established before the date of the creation of the world according to the biblical account.
The Sumerian Flood Story, as a story or folk-tale, existed prior to the Epic of Gilgamesh, presumably, - for within the Epic it tells of how the story is an old and ancient one, and that the King Gilgamesh is the first person to hear the story since it happened, - antedates it considerably. Since the earliest evidence of writing comes from 3500 BC, it can also be assumed that the story arose after that date, or prior to that date through oral story-telling. Just as many of the stories in Genesis were a product of oral-story telling (for Hebrew did not even have a writing system at the times that the Primeval History - Genesis 1-11 - was supposed to have occurred), and were compiled later - the same holds true for the Sumerians - but earlier.
So, amassing quotes from Wikipedia to try to show that oral-story telling did not exist, but that all stories MUST have written form - or they don't exist - is not a convincing argument for the primacy of the Genesis account. The date in which the Genesis account was written down definitively is given below - and it is far after the first records of the Epic of Gilgamesh.
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Originally Posted by abishalom
I'm not sure on time lines or whatnot. But the 1st five chapters of the bible were written by Moses of the Israelite. You know the people who were in bondage in Egypt for over 400 years. So you saying that a civilization (that was not in captivity) and happened to be one of grandsons of Ham (Noah's son) had a flood story before the Israelite has no bearing on the accuracy of the biblical account.
Jewish Tradition (and not the actual Torah, or any book in the Hebrew Bible) attributes the writing of the Torah (or the Pentateuch) - the first five books of the Hebrew Bible - to Moses. When you echo these thoughts by writing "the 1st five chapters of the bible were written by Moses of the Israelite", I can only assume that you meant "books", rather than "chapters". Within that same Jewish Tradition, Abraham Ibn Ezra (1089-1164 AD), in his commentary on the Torah, proved that Moses could not have written the Torah in it's entirety. Baruch Spinoza (1632-1677) further developed Ibn Ezra's ideas and showed that Moses was not even responsible for the majority of the Torah. It has now been pretty common knowledge for almost 1000 years that Moses did not write the Torah.
The Biblical Post-Flood Genealogy is not reliable. When you say it's impossible that "a civilization" that came from "one of [the] grandsons of Ham (Noah's son)" - then you are automatically assuming that these geneaological records were accurate, when they were not. As we now know - the Israelites were Canaanites at one point, espcially linguistically and culturally. If we followed the Post-Noah Genealogy and believe that Canaanites came from the same stock as Egyptians, then it must be admitted that the Israelites were from the line of Ham. Does that sound accurate to you? Whoever compiled this Genealogy was limited in his information, and much of what he wrote reflected the political situation of the time in which he wrote, rather than of the time about which he was writing.
A common fallacy in biblical studies is to assume that the composition of a story is done near or around the time in which the story occurred. The Pentateuch probably found it's final form near the 6th-5th Centuries BC - many long years after Moses had lived. As I pointed out above, Hebrew did not even exist OR have it's own writing system during the times of the Primeval History, let along the time given to Abraham. Hebrew is a Canaanite language, and is derived from earlier linguistic ancestors - such as Akkadian.
Obviously Noah had the proper food for the koalas or we wouldn't have Koalas after the world-wide flood.
Then explain how Noah had ''gathered'' proper food for the Koalas.
Heres a biblical quote ''And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them''
So where's the boat that Noah built to journey to Australia to ''gather'' the food for the Koalas?
Jewish Tradition (and not the actual Torah, or any book in the Hebrew Bible) attributes the writing of the Torah (or the Pentateuch) - the first five books of the Hebrew Bible - to Moses. When you echo these thoughts by writing "the 1st five chapters of the bible were written by Moses of the Israelite", I can only assume that you meant "books", rather than "chapters". Within that same Jewish Tradition, Abraham Ibn Ezra (1089-1164 AD), in his commentary on the Torah, proved that Moses could not have written the Torah in it's entirety. Baruch Spinoza (1632-1677) further developed Ibn Ezra's ideas and showed that Moses was not even responsible for the majority of the Torah. It has now been pretty common knowledge for almost 1000 years that Moses did not write the Torah.
The Biblical Post-Flood Genealogy is not reliable. When you say it's impossible that "a civilization" that came from "one of [the] grandsons of Ham (Noah's son)" - then you are automatically assuming that these geneaological records were accurate, when they were not. As we now know - the Israelites were Canaanites at one point, espcially linguistically and culturally. If we followed the Post-Noah Genealogy and believe that Canaanites came from the same stock as Egyptians, then it must be admitted that the Israelites were from the line of Ham. Does that sound accurate to you? Whoever compiled this Genealogy was limited in his information, and much of what he wrote reflected the political situation of the time in which he wrote, rather than of the time about which he was writing.
A common fallacy in biblical studies is to assume that the composition of a story is done near or around the time in which the story occurred. The Pentateuch probably found it's final form near the 6th-5th Centuries BC - many long years after Moses had lived. As I pointed out above, Hebrew did not even exist OR have it's own writing system during the times of the Primeval History, let along the time given to Abraham. Hebrew is a Canaanite language, and is derived from earlier linguistic ancestors - such as Akkadian.
This post is just false.
If we all follow post-Noah genealogy the Israelites were NOT Canaanites. Where did you get this from? Yes their language was related to the Canaanite language, but most of the early languages were likely related. But the Israelites were descendent's of Shem (son of Noah brother of Ham) not Ham himself (like Canaan).
One thing people need to realize is that Canaan was the seed of incest. Yes that's right. When Ham "saw the nakedness of his father" it meant that he slept with his mother (Noah's wife). Which explains why Canaan receive the curse of Ham. I'm sure you are aware of the effects of inbreeding. That is why in the Bible God tells the Israelites not to intermarry with the Canaanites (who were avid inbreeders and partook in other aberrations including child sacrifice). The condemning of inbreeding is further detailed in Leviticus 18.
Last edited by avishalom; 03-13-2012 at 05:25 PM..
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