Quote:
Originally Posted by eanassir
Moreover, Noah was mentioned in the Gilgamish epic: his name was Otonabishtim with his story of the flood or deluge.
|
No, you have it backwards. That epic was written long before the Hebrews, the Hebrews merely copied it into their records, then made changes to it corresponding with their beliefs as they understood them.
The sexagesimal system came before the decimal system.
When you study Genesis, and of course to engage in any real study you must use the BHS or similar texts and not the faulty KJV (and even the RKJV which was revised to remove the errors and mistakes is still faulty), you'll see evidence that Genesis was originally written in the form of clay tablets.
Since clay tablets were not paginated (i.e. numbered), lines were repeated ("catch-lines") to show continuity from one tablet to the next. The following is evidence that the first 36 chapters in Genesis were recorded on clay tablets:
1:1 God created the heavens and the earth.
2:4 When they were created (that is the first tablet)
5:2 When they were created
6:10 Shem, Ham, and Japheth (this is the 2nd tablet)
10:1 Shem, Ham, and Japheth
10:32 After the Flood (this is the 3rd tablet)
11:10 After the Flood
11:26 Abram, Nahor, and Haran (this is the 4th tablet)
11:27 Abram, Nahor, and Haran
25:12 Abraham’s son (this is the 5th tablet)
25:19 Abraham’s son
36:1 Who is Edom (this is the 6th tablet)
36:8 Who is Edom (this is the 7th tablet)
36:9 Father Edom
36:43 Father Edom (this is the 8th tablet)
Now, later, those tablets were written on other media, and information was both added and deleted from what was contained in the original texts. Most of that is En (E1, E2, E3...etc) and we know that the "E" texts were merged with the "J" texts and "P" texts and that farther down the road an editor, identified as "R" made lots of changes to the texts, mostly to conform with all of the theological changes in Deuteronomy (and we know "R" is Jeremiah and a few editors who followed after him).
Many deletions occurred when Hebrew theology shifted from polytheism to henotheism (ie one god among many different gods -- a logical step in the evolution of religious thought -- then from henotheism to monotheism and then from monotheism to deism then deism to atheism).
That there are both multiple writers and multiple sources of the Hebrew "Deluge" is proven:
P says that the flood lasted for almost one year (7:11, 7:24, 8:3, and 8:13).
J says that it lasted for forty days and forty nights (7:17).
P says that Noah sent a raven, while J says it was a dove, Genesis 8:7-8, while J has seven pairs of clean animals and two pair of unclean animals.
J stated that God smelled the sacrifices of Noah and it pleased Him, Genesis 8:21, but note that P cannot make such a statement, because P only claims that one pair of each animal was brought aboard, thus a sacrifice would have resulted in extinction of whatever species was sacrificed.
For "creationists" your days are numbered, because it's now only a matter of time before the original "E" and the original "J" texts, along with the original "P" texts are discovered; the clock is literally ticking. And when they are discovered, it rip asunder the fabric of christianity.
Most of "E" was deleted by "P" and "R" and when the original texts are finally found, the contradictions between them will change everything.
Anyway, it says here:
Genesis 7:6 Noah was 600 years old when the floodwaters engulfed the earth.
The Hebrews did not understand the sexigesimal numbering system, and they did not know that 600 (Sexigesimal) is equivalent to 36,000 (Decimal) which is the age at which Ziusruda (Sumerian) and Uptanishtim (Akkadian) experienced the Deluge.
That is proof that the Hebrews copied the story from other sources.
Mentioning...
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer
There are alternative explanations to the flood myths in cultures around the world. The stories may have their roots in flooding caused by events such as a massive tsunami caused by a giant meteoric impact in the ocean or a rise in sea level from melting ice caps. Stories are often shared and modified by people living in different regions of the world.
|
I was in law enforcement and the military long enough to know that when an extremely diverse group of people start saying what amounts to basically the same thing, there is something there.
That's what you have here. There are Deluge stories on all 6 inhabited continents. There is no possible way to argue cultural diffusion. Because that is true, this was an event of global proportions that everyone experienced. Did everyone die? No. Did everyone witness it? No, because in the event of a tsunami, which is the best and most likely explanation of what actually happened, people living far inland would neither have witnessed the event, nor been directly affected.
Can you claim that cultural diffusion took place intra-continental? Sure. I have no doubt that a group like the Algonquin had contact with another group in North America and if they did not possess that knowledge, then they adopted it, and if they did already possess, it then they adopted parts to fit their culture and their understanding of the world. It's also possible a group of aborigines in Australia witnessed the event while another group did not, and when they two groups came into contact, one adopted the story of the other and made some slight alterations. Lather, Rinse, Repeat for Africa, Asia, Mesopotamia etc etc etc.
My point is that there was no inter-continental diffusion.
No one from Mesopotamia sent an e-mail, or post or text or flew to Australia to inform people there of the event.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer
TMany ancient people also discovered seashells on high elevations such as mountains and believed they were left there by a massive global flood.
|
But so have we. We have found "ghost beaches" thanks to satellites and the space shuttle. There's a huge deposit of sand in the Himalayas. There is no possible explanation for its presence, except that tsunami racing over the Indian sub-continent left it there.
Erosion by water, wind and rain might explain a trace of sand, but not 8 freaking meters of sand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer
Actual evidence for a global flood at any time in the earth's history does not exist.
|
Yes, it does.
I think people need to dispense with the intellectual dishonesty and start using the proper and correct word. Again, the Hebrew word is Deluge and not "Flood" and to insist upon calling something that is not speaks of intentional ridicule.
That is the same intellectual dishonesty where the Greek word is intentionally mistranslated as "sank" instead of the correct word "inundated." No, neither a continent nor an island-continent can sink;
but it can be inundated. Those who insist upon intentionally using the incorrect words are intellectually dishonest and have only one intent and that is to debase and ridicule (especially something that they don't understand or that frightens them).
You are correct in that there is no evidence of a global flood,
but there is evidence of a global tsunami; a global Deluge.
The Gobi Desert is one such mystery. The Gobi Desert is not a desert at all in the traditional sense. It is bare bedrock strewn with rocks ranging form pebbles to gigantic boulders weighing several tons.
The lightest rocks, gravel and pebbles are farthest inland, while the larger rocks and boulders are arrayed from seaward to inland. There is only one explanation for that, and that is a tsunami. Only a tsunami would have the force to arrange/organize rocks from largest/heaviest to smallest/lightest from seaward to inland, and also have the power to strip off the top layer of soil (but actually I suspect that might have happened afterward when the weather patterns suddenly changed --- the same weather patters that turned the Sahara, the Saudi Peninsula and Mesopotamia from lush sub-tropical forests into virtual waste and steppe lands).
The age of the western ice sheet in Antarctica is also evidence of a global Deluge. The ice sheet is less than 10,000 years old. The eastern ice sheet which sits atop most of the continent (rather than on the continental shelf) is far older, several million years older.
10,000 years or so ago, something totally destroyed the western ice sheet, but did little damage to the eastern ice sheet. Whatever destroyed the western ice sheet also caused the temperatures to rise 7° F in just ~50 years, and by dumping that much fresh water into the ocean currents, caused a change in weather patterns that destroyed many areas that were habitable, but which are not now habitable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer
Come on, some people need to stop taking scripture so literally. It's supposed to be about the teachings behind the stories.
Arguing about the historical accuracy of a mythological story is a pointless exercise.
|
Not really. You can learn a lot.
Mythologically...
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel
Its academic; the question is was there a worldwide flood?
Its academic, all these cultures and more have recorded worldwide flood data in their history.
|
That proves nothing, except that a large number of cultures experienced the same event. It does not prove that "event" was a flood.
If you read Adama, My Son, the Zulu shaman relates that "t
he gods became angry and threw up the ground around us."
I seriously doubt the Zulu had any knowledge of plate tectonics. They are trying to understand their world in the context of their own child-like mentality.
What was it? A volcanic eruption? No, they would have mentioned fire. An earthquake? One earthquake would not frighten them off so easily. A series of earthquakes? Perhaps, and that's a much better answer than the others.
Ejecta from asteroid impacts?
That's another possibility.
Suppose the asteroid impacts in North America 11,000 years ago threw ejecta up into the atmosphere across the Atlantic Ocean into central Africa
where the Zulu used to live.
All that sediment raining down upon them. Their child-like mentality might lead them to believe that the gods were throwing ground upon them.
And so the Zulu fled....south....to southern Africa.....where they came into contact with the Xhosa....who became bitter enemies....constant warfare and death....until the Dutch showed up and intuited Apartheid..... to keep the Xhosa and Zulu from hacking each other to bits...and it worked....there was peace...but then a member of the Xhosa Tribe became president...you know him as Nelson Mandela....and the violence between the Xhosa and Zulu sprang up again....and still continues....to this day....
...funny how things work out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel
It is generally conceded by ethnologists that when races of people hold to a common, strongly developed belief, there must have been some historical event ( or incident), as the basics of that universal tradition.
Archaeologist found Ashurbanipals library and it contained a flood account. They also discovered " The Gilgamesh Epic", and it contained a flood account. The Babylonians have a flood record.
Utnapishtims version of the flood closely parallels the Moses account.
|
That's because the Hebrews copied the story from other cultures.
Academically...
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
This finding thoroughly debunks the evolutionary theory that each layer took millions of years to develop. Trees do not grow for millions of years through millions of years of strata. It proves these layers were all laid down at the same time by the world wide flood.
|
No, it does not. There are fossilized trees in Oregon on the coast. The evidence all points to a localized earthquake induced tsunami that destroyed the forest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
We are talking about God setting a rainbow in the clouds as a covenant with humanity, not whether humans saw multi-colors in a mud puddle.
|
But there are always rainbows, before and after.
What's the point of telling humanity that Jesus doesn't intend to murder everyone with a flood again?
Isaiah 24:1 Look, Jesus is ready to devastate the earth and leave it in ruins; he will mar its surface and scatter its inhabitants. 24:2 Everyone will suffer – the priest as well as the people, the master as well as the servant, the elegant lady as well as the female attendant, the seller as well as the buyer, the borrower as well as the lender, the creditor as well as the debtor.
Isaiah 24:3 The earth will be completely devastated and thoroughly ransacked. For Jesus has decreed this judgment. 24:4 The earth dries up and withers, the world shrivels up and withers; the prominent people of the earth fade away.
Isaiah 24:6 So a treaty curse devours the earth; its inhabitants pay for their guilt. This is why the inhabitants of the earth disappear, and are reduced to just a handful of people.
Isaiah 24:19 The earth is broken in pieces, the earth is ripped to shreds,
the earth shakes violently. 24:20 The earth will stagger around like a drunk; it will sway back and forth like a hut in a windstorm. Its sin will weigh it down, and it will fall and never get up again.
Well, I'm certainly comforted to know that instead of Jesus killing off all of humanity in flood, Jesus will destroy the Earth.
Debunking...
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by brightdoglover
Interesting that few people want to comment on the impossibility of having the time and inclination to prepare and ark and all those paired critters and all- not likely with a flood of any kind, local or worldwide.
|
Look, people who are ignurnt try to explain the world in terms that they understand.
You can look at my dissertation on the Zulu.
This takes no imagination whatsoever. It's a matter of retro-fitting. There was a global catastrophe. Over time, key truths of the story are lost and then it is revised and attempted to explain wrapped up in culture. What could cause such a disaster? Only a god or spirit or in some tales of North American aboriginal groups, it was Coyote who did the dirty deed. In groups in Oceania, note that it was Turtle, Fish or some other sea creature. Obviously two people had to survive to repopulate the Earth, but note that in some stories, everyone dies, and the gods then created new peoples for the Earth. What about the animals? For some groups, they would have to have been taken on some kind of ship, but what is interesting is that stories outside of the Levant/Mesopotamia make no such mention of saving animals. As I recall, only one such story talks of saving the animals, but I believe there you have cross-cultural contamination, and that the story was modified after contact with the Spaniards.
Interestingly...
Mircea
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Good catch
, it does indeed say 7 pairs (thanks). But my point still stands, the dang boat just was not big enough to hold all the animals and food required to feed them for a year.
