Do you believe that hell is an actual physical place? (paradise, salvation)

[BigCityDreamer]

Many religions teach that hell is a physical place somewhere beneath the earth's surface.

If this is true, then shouldn't we theoretically be able to dig into the earth and find hell with all the sinful people who have ever lived and then died being tormented there?

If not, then where does hell really exist?

[whoppers]

Ha ha! The strange 3-tiered model of the universe (hell, earth, heaven) has always seemed a strange construct - and one not shared by all. The association of Death (as a state and as a deity) residing in the lowest tier seems to owe its origin in our human habit of interring the dead in the ground. - for all intents and purposes "below" the earth-tier. "Death's maw opened and swallowed him" was a common image, and his appetite was never-ending. In most mythologies, the gods themselves must descend to this underworld and confront Death in some manner. Even as gods, though, they are subject to various inevitable rules concerning the escape of Death - one couldn't just waltz out of the underworld without recognizing these "rules".

Personally, I prefer the older - pre-Hellenistic - idea that all men (good or bad) went to the same place: the grave. This grave was known by various names, as in the Hebrew Bible: Sheol. After the influences of Greek Hellenism, the idea arose in Judaism and later Christianity, that the Doctrine of Retribution (Do Good, get Good; Do Bad, get Bad) was no longer limited to one's existence on Earth alone. It appears, that in an attempt at answering the question of innocent suffering (which clashes with the Doctrine of Retribution - see the Book of Job), Retribution was now extended beyond the grave. No longer a place of dreariness, forgetfulness, and the repository of both bad and good - Sheol soon became Hell or Hades, a place of punishment for the earthly sins. The Good, even if they suffered while on Earth - against the Doctrine of Retribution - would be compensated in the afterlife, in Heaven. These became popular concepts, and various religions vied for adherents with the promises of the best afterlifes, and the easiest ways to attain them.

This is why I don't worry about Hell as a place of punishment. I prefer the older, more pragmatic idea of the common Grave of humanity. As Ecclesiastes taught: there's nothing after death, so enjoy life while you can!

[cisco kid]

How do you get millions of otherwise normal people to follow you and believe in the most absurd fairy tales? Threaten them with great physical violence. Believe in what I say, or else...burn in hell forever. Either in this life or the next. Crude, age-old method of manipulation practiced by cults and religious despots throughout the ages. To get large numbers of people to follow you and do whatever you want? Tell them the invisible man in the sky speaks to you personally, then proceed to scare the crap out of them.

[krazykiwi]

metaphysically it is a place in. so physically it would exsist;but it shouldnt be scary though, it wasnt ment to be scary because the only one who has jurisdiction to take you there is the lord.

[cisco kid]

Originally Posted by krazykiwi

metaphysically it is a place in. so physically it would exsist;

really? hell is a real physical place? that exists outside of your scary dreams and imagination? how do you know this? and where is it?

Originally Posted by krazykiwi

but it shouldnt be scary though, it wasnt ment to be scary because the only one who has jurisdiction to take you there is the lord.

huh? what religion teaches that hell isn't a scary place? is it a happy place?

[jdaelectro]

Whether physical or spiritual, It is not where you want to end up. People today dismiss hell because they can't conveniently imagine such a horrible place. They think if they don't believe in it hard enough, that it won't be the place they will end up. Pride was the first sin and it will be the one that keeps people blinded to what is to come. Everyone has a choice though.

[Atheist Liberal]

Originally Posted by jdaelectro

People today dismiss hell because they can't conveniently imagine such a horrible place..

We are all living in hell already. Life in general is hell.

[whoppers]

This Psalm (18) highlights the physical aspects of what happens to man after death. Notice that there is NO talk about everlasting torment, "Hell" - but only Sheol - the common grave. Whether you're religious or non-religious - Sheol as a term for the common grave can be seen, and the very non-punitive nature of death realized. Until someone finds "Hell" - I'll stick with my scientific model, which was also the model of most of the ancient Near East anyways - including the Israelites. Notice the verse numbering takes the superscription as the first verse, so many English translations will be off by one verse. Biblical text is in bold, while my mini-commentary is in [bracketed italics].

Psalm 18:1-20 (AB)

For the director. Of David, the servent of Yahweh, who sang to Yahweh the words of this song, when Yahweh rescued him from the grasp of all his enemies and from the hand of Sheol.
[For Fundamentlists: Yahweh (God) rescued David from going to Hell? That would be a weird idea!]
He said: (vs. 1)

I love you, Yahweh, my strength. (vs. 2)

Yahweh is my rock and my fortress;
----my deliverer is my God,
My mountain where I take refuge;
----my shield amd my horn of salvation,
My stronghold, worthy of praise. (vss. 3-4)

I called Yahweh,
----and was saved from my Foe [Death - not "Hell"].
The breakers of Death [capitalized because it was viewed as a deity - "Mot"] encompassed me,
----the torrents of Belial overwhelmed me.
The cords of Sheol surrounded me,
----the traps of Death confronted me. (vss. 4-6)

In my anguish I called Yahweh,
----and to my God I cried for help;
My voice was heard in his palace,
----my cry reached his ears. (vs. 7)

[Now follows a divine theophany of Yahweh as warrior, Yahweh as a storm-god, riding clouds (in typical Baal imagery: Baal the Storm-Rider), and riding on Cherubs - which, contrary to Renaissance painting, were not cute little angels, but actually monstrous human-headed, lion-bodied, eagle-winged creatures that served various services (see their role defending the Tree of Life, and their role as Yahweh's "steed", as well as their depiction as Yahweh's footstools in the Tabernacle). Yahweh engages in a cosmic battle against Death to save David from Sheol (surely not from "Hell" in a battle for David's "soul"). Notice also the bull imagery, typical of Bull 'El - the god who was bequeathed to the Israelites, who had their own divine epithets for 'El (El Shaddai, El Elyon, El Olam, etc.]. The tradition of bull imagery with the Israelite one was an old one, but criticized by the later Southern writers of the Yahweh-Alone cult (see the bull of Aaron, and the two Bulls of the Northern Kingdom). Notice in vs. 8 the reference to the roots of the mountains being in Sheol - or the netherworld, a physical place in that aspect (see Dahood, Psalms I for an exhaustive list of biblical references indicating this feature of the mountains, as well as the term "nether-world" being another meaning for the Hebrew word for "earth"; also, see Dahood for comments on Yahweh riding the Cherubim as steeds.)]

The nether world reeled and rocked,
----the foundations of the mountains shuddered;
They reeled when his anger blazed.
Smoke rose from his nostrils, [bull imagery]
----and fire from his mouth devoured;
Coals flamed forth from him. (vss. 8-9)

He spread apart the heavens and came down,
----a storm cloud under his feet [very anthropomorphic Baal imagery].
He mounted the Cherub and flew,
----and soared on wings outstretched.
Dark grew his canopy around him
----with the rain cloud his pavillion.
From his light clouds scudded before him,
----hailstones and flashes of fire. (vss. 10-13)


[Now comes the typical imagery of Yahweh using the weapons of a storm God - the thunder: his voice; lightning: his arrows (from the bow which he turned upside down after Noah's flood - pointing it at himself, instead of the earth - as a sign that he would never destroy the earth as he had before. Thus we get the "rainbow" - with the "bow" part signifying Yahweh's main weapon: the bow and arrow (ligthning).]

Yahweh thundered from the heavens,
---and the Most High gave forth his voice ["Most High" = 'El Elyon].
He forged his arrows and scattered them,
----he mulitplied his shafts and dispersed them.
The fountainheads of the sea were exposed,
----and the world's foundations were laid bare,
At your roar, O Yahweh,
----at the blast from your nostrils. (vss. 14-16)

[bull imagery in dispensing the "breath of God" as a weapon - the same "breath of God" that was present in the Genesis 1 account, hovering over the waters, waiting to separate them (also see the Exodus account of the Reed Sea)]

He reached down from high and snatched me,
----he drew me from the waters deep. [typical imagery of being close to Death]
He rescued me from my powerful Foe,
----and from my Enemy though stronger than I.
He went before me on the day of my death,
----and Yahweh became my staff.
He brought me out of the broad domain,
----liberated me because he loved me. (vss. 17-20, and end of selection)

["Broad Domain" is a poetic term for the underworld, or Sheol. It seems strange that David's "soul" (if one is insistent on the idea of a Christian soul that lives beyond the body and can go to either heaven or hell) was in danger of DEATH, does it not? That Yahweh must save David's "soul" in a great battle. To make better sense of the word "soul" in the Hebrew Bible, it must be realized that they had no concept of a soul that lived beyond death, but that their word (translated "soul" mostly) merely meant "life-force" or "living person" most times (see Genesis, "and the man became a living person" - attributing "living person" to a mystical "soul" would be silly.]

The rest of the Psalm speaks of how David, thanks to the help of Yahweh's intervention, was able to defeat his EARTHLY enemies. The Psalm makes no sense if one believes in:

1. a "soul" that lives on after death
2. that Sheol is actually a place of punishment called Hell or Hades

It's pretty clear, I HOPE, that the Psalm has much more going on than a standard Christian reading would give it, as well as a standard Jewish reading. This is one of those Psalms that show the Canaanite features of Israelite religion (no matter how much the later Yahweh-Alone cult tried to whipe these features out of existence). Cyrus H. Gordon, in approaching the question of "why is most of the Bible in narrative, rather than in poetic form?" (which was the norm in the ancient Near East) suggested that it was the later Israelites attempting to distance themselves from the poetic traditions - which were inherited from the Canaanite and Ugaritic scribes, and had too many anthropomorphisms, too much Baal-imagery, too many mythological allusions, etc. etc. I think it's an interesting idea, for the poetry that DOES remain in the Hebrew Bible is packed to the brim with the above items - and hopefully my quotation and mini-commentary showed that.

I hope that helps for anyone wondering about the original biblical ideas concerning "hell" (Sheol, more accurately)- rather than the later, Greek ideas that Christians still hold (ironic that Christians are fond of the pagan Greek ideas, rather than the ideas of the actual Hebrew Bible. Not surprising, seeing as they adopted the Hebrew Bible as their "Old Testament" and distanced themselves from it at the same time - thus the name "Old" Testament, and "New" Testament). And I hope some of you enjoyed the syncretistic features of the selection.

[phxgreenfire]

I think "Hell" has evolved. Because sentience and consciousness are all people know in life, many believe there must be continuity of this after death as we can't fathom a state of non-existence. Hell was devised to frighten people in order to collect money from them and control them.

If anything, I think the Ancient Greek concept of the afterlife makes more sense than the Christian view: Tartarus, Asphodel Meadows and Elysium. Tartarus is akin to the Christian Hell, and Elysium is akin to Christian Heaven; i.e. eternal punishment and paradise respectively. The Asphodel Meadows (commonly referred to as the Underworld) was where most people went after they died. Most people weren't virtuous enough for Elysium, nor were they odious enough for Tartarus. There's more to it, but that's it in a nutshell, and I think the Asphodel Meadows most accurately describe the lives of the vast majority of all people on Earth.

That being said, there are complications to the concepts of Heaven and Hell, as you could easily make a valid argument that Hitler went to Heaven based on things the Bible says are required to enter. It also depends which religious belief you consult to see what is considered good, and what is considered evil... and what happens to you after you die.

In the end, no, I do not believe Hell is a real place... outside of the town in Michigan, as well as various other places that incorporate it into their names.

[brightdoglover]

The popular image of Hell as smelling like rotten eggs and being full of fire and flaming liquid- looks and seems a lot like the inside of a volcano. Of course, ancient people wouldn't mistake the two, right?