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Really? You have no pity for a child suffering from disease? How about someone who dies from being tortured to death? No pity for one who dies before seing their children grow up? For whom the bell tolls? Death may be natural, but how and when it comes in one's life can generally evoke empathy from anyone with a heartbeat. And I'm an "atheist" by the way.
I guess there is no difference between being an atheist or a theist when it comes to death. Maybe I’m just the only one who doesn't mind when someone reacts to death on a totally different way that I do myself. I just accept the fact that not everyone reacts the same way I do.
I wanted to ask Jake if he only pities children suffering from disease? That argument is always a red flag for me. It's the fetish of the child. Why only children, when do people become less valuable? What's the cut off age?
I wanted to ask Jake if he only pities children suffering from disease? That argument is always a red flag for me. It's the fetish of the child. Why only children, when do people become less valuable? What's the cut off age?
I so agree, we seem to value the life of a child more than the life of other human beings. A child is a human being. Human life is precious. ( most of it anyway). Period.
Red Flag to me as well Chielgirl. It drives me nuts.
People are people, to distinguish different shades of worthiness to me is insulting and offensive.
We are living in an era of the cult of the child.
When I had Leukeamia it used to really upset me in the wards that adults were seen as "having ot get on with it". Kids were treated so much better and eulogised for being "brave" because they smiled. I used to find it quite repulsive that another cancer patient , sometimes with far worse quality of life and with a far worse prognosis was somehow not "brave".
Children's wards were always brighter, nurses were nicer, and wore colourful outfits .... Adult wards were just plain, the nurses did their job , period. Why ?
Why exactly is a child's life deemed more important ?
If you ask me adult and geriatric wards are the ones who need the cheering up the most, they get less visits, and their life experience is far more depressing. They understand far better than kids what is happening to them and also have to deal with "real life" a lot more ( jobs, paying bills etc..). The kids were no way near as frightened because they did not understand what was going on as well. Nothing brave about it.
I am sorry if this upsets some people, but adults should be treated the same as kids. Life is life. Whether it comes in the shape of cute blond 4 year old with dimples or a 34 year old balding guy with a beer belly and scars.
I so agree, we seem to value the life of a child more than the life of other human beings. A child is a human being. Human life is precious. ( most of it anyway). Period.
Red Flag to me as well Chielgirl. It drives me nuts.
People are people, to distinguish different shades of worthiness to me is insulting and offensive.
We are living in an era of the cult of the child.
When I had Leukeamia it used to really upset me in the wards that adults were seen as "having ot get on with it". Kids were treated so much better and eulogised for being "brave" because they smiled. I used to find it quite repulsive that another cancer patient , sometimes with far worse quality of life and with a far worse prognosis was somehow not "brave".
Children's wards were always brighter, nurses were nicer, and wore colourful outfits .... Adult wards were just plain, the nurses did their job , period. Why ?
Why exactly is a child's life deemed more important ?
If you ask me adult and geriatric wards are the ones who need the cheering up the most, they get less visits, and their life experience is far more depressing. They understand far better than kids what is happening to them and also have to deal with "real life" a lot more ( jobs, paying bills etc..). The kids were no way near as frightened because they did not understand what was going on as well. Nothing brave about it.
I am sorry if this upsets some people, but adults should be treated the same as kids. Life is life. Whether it comes in the shape of cute blond 4 year old with dimples or a 34 year old balding guy with a beer belly and scars.
Do you have children? The older a person is, the more life they have lived. A child's premature death is to me far more tragic b/c they have not been provided the opportunity to LIVE. To me it is not tragic for an 88 year old to die peacefully in their sleep. A 34 year old frankly should not have a beer belly, but putting that aside, I consider that to be very young as well (and therefore the premature death is equally tragic). It isn't the cult of the child, but a recognition of the fact that children have not been provided the opportunity to live a significant amount of time. Also if you have a child, it evokes especially strong emotions. But I was hardly limiting it to children, merely saying that there are circumstances that are especially tragic.
Originally Posted by JakeDog I guess there is no difference between being an atheist or a theist when it comes to death. Maybe I’m just the only one who doesn't mind when someone reacts to death on a totally different way that I do myself. I just accept the fact that not everyone reacts the same way I do.
I accept that you react differently, it just doesn't strike me as a particularly human response.
I wanted to ask Jake if he only pities children suffering from disease? That argument is always a red flag for me. It's the fetish of the child. Why only children, when do people become less valuable? What's the cut off age?
Read my post. I mention several other types of dying that I would assume would evoke sympathy. I'm hardly limiting it to children.
I accept that you react differently, it just doesn't strike me as a particularly human response.
Yes well, the 1st time I ever went to a Surinam funeral the people there acted as if they were at a wedding party instead of a funeral. At first I was upset that they were being happy and cheery instead of sad or devastated like I was myself. Like you I thought of them as cruel or inhuman, simply because they did not show the same reactions as me.
Since then I've learned not to judge people until you know the real reason why they behave like they behave. The Surinam people rather focus on the good the times they had with the deceased instead of their own (personal) loss. To them the transition from life to whatever comes next is not something to be sad about or mourned over; death is a journey everyone has to take eventually.
Do you have children? The older a person is, the more life they have lived. A child's premature death is to me far more tragic b/c they have not been provided the opportunity to LIVE.
Well I guess it depends on how you measure pain or potential. A baby isn't self-aware yet, so compared to an adult has nothing to loose. I mean if you could only rescue 1 person out of a burning hospital who would you rescue, a coma-patient baby who was born brain dead or an old lady who only suffers from a broken hip?
Do you have children? The older a person is, the more life they have lived. A child's premature death is to me far more tragic b/c they have not been provided the opportunity to LIVE. To me it is not tragic for an 88 year old to die peacefully in their sleep. A 34 year old frankly should not have a beer belly, but putting that aside, I consider that to be very young as well (and therefore the premature death is equally tragic). It isn't the cult of the child, but a recognition of the fact that children have not been provided the opportunity to live a significant amount of time. Also if you have a child, it evokes especially strong emotions. But I was hardly limiting it to children, merely saying that there are circumstances that are especially tragic.
Then I have to respectfully disagree with you. To me a life is a life and our sympathy should go to whom suffers the most and feel the suffering the most whether a small child or a middle age chap ( beer belly or not). No I do not have children but I would be grossly offended if my fiance's life was treated as less important than a 4 year old. In fact beyond offended. In a red fury of rage more like it.
I do realise having children evokes strong emotions, just as strong as the emotions I feel even thinking of my partner dying or coming down with illness. Emotions are what makes us humans but I do not get why a child seems to matter more.
I never will. As I said I survived 10 years of Leukaemia and I saw the difference in status accorded to kids and to adults. It was sickening. Emotions are never logical or rational but I always felt the irrationality in favour of children was even worse. Don't get me wrong, I do not hate children, I think they deserve the best that life can give them, still I believe we are as a society geared up uniquely to the child. That to me is unfair. Grossly unfair.
I got so tired of heart-string-pulling stories in the papers and on TV about the "bravery" of sick Children . I saw far more bravery from adults who still had to hold their families together, feed them , managed to nurture them despite feeling so ill they were barely standing. People who put others before them even when the worst of the worst happened to them. Not just kids who were brave because they smiled and looked cute in hospital and had nothing else to worry about.
A parent will of course put his children's life first, as i would my partner's life first.
Being ill is being ill, feeling wretched to me is made far worse by having life experience and a true understanding of the hardships ahead. And having to cope with life because as an adult you are never quite allowed to collapse under the burden of pain and sickness. In the context of illness being a sentient adult is far, far worse than being a child.
I would agree that an 88 year old dying in his sleep is not as tragic as a 7 year old dying in a car accident. I think very few people would feel otherwise. But at the end of the day pain is pain, misery is misery and we do not have the right to quantify people's pain and misery by how old they are. Circumstances are what matters.
When is the cut off point at which an adult's life is not as precious as a child ?
Our society does have a cult of the child where nothing but the child matters. We have elevated kids to the status of small gods simply because they are sweet and cute and innocent. I just do not get that. There is a charity here in the UK called "Save the Children", how about "save the adults" ?
For example the "leukaemia trust"'s money goes to both children and adults ( as it should) but there is also a special Leukaemia trust for children as well. So much easier to collect money for a little angelic child than for an adult charity. I find this completely unbalanced.
What's your evidence God doesn't exist? I'd be curious to know.
Nick:
Which of the hundreds of gods are you referring to?
Perhaps I can pose a scenario that might make have some meaning.
I assume that you're not a believer in the Greek, Egyptian, Babylonian, Norse or Roman pantheons of gods. In this day and age, all of those gods are seen as nothing more than colorful relics of a bygone age, when people where much more ignorant of the ways of nature and much more willing to look for supernatural explanations for things like weather, the change of seasons, good crop harvests and so on.
But since you do not believe in those gods, are you not in some sense an atheist, too? Or maybe just an infidel? After all, those gods were all as real to their believers as yours is to you.
I'll suggest that when you understand why it is that you reject all of those gods, you'll understand precisely why other people reject yours.
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I guess there is no difference between being an atheist or a theist when it comes to death. Maybe I’m just the only one who doesn't mind when someone reacts to death on a totally different way that I do myself. 
I just accept the fact that not everyone reacts the same way I do.
I mean if you could only rescue 1 person out of a burning hospital who would you rescue, a coma-patient baby who was born brain dead or an old lady who only suffers from a broken hip?
Atheists: What's your evidence God doesn't exist?
