What Is Designed In the Universe? (agnostic, Baptists, Catholics, Judaism)
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A simple explanation that holds no water. If our believing is so important to us it is his responsibility to make himself available. HE is responsible for doing so. the idea that we would be automatons when knowing for certain he exists, is rubbish. If making us aware somehow interferes with the validity of belief then we would not have the Bible; it's presence does the same thing, in a far less effective way.
If it's important that everyone believe, God should step up. If he doesn't, then he doesn't care enough. Since our souls hang in the balance his lack of interest is callous, at best.
The only faith that demands no evidence is the one which has no evidence, and thus, no validity.
Absolute rubbish. It's his "responsibility"? Who says so? You? Really? You have that kind of authority?
It's not about awareness. It's about knowing. Think about it. Do you enjoy watching a movie or sports event knowing the outcome, knowing the result? Some people do like to rematch movies or see old clips but for the most part we all enjoy the experience more when we are held in suspense. If we knew g-d existed because he made his presence known, imagine the number of suicides or accidental seeming deaths. If heaven awaits, assuredly, it becomes much easier to take ones own life. Why not? Eternal bliss sure beats the trials and tribs of everyday life.
It's the not knowing, for sure, that keeps us going, working to make this life better for those of us around us. If eternity awaits, without doubt, why heal the old or sick? They have a much better place to go, and we all will join them there, if we just believe....
You see knowing the outcome, knowing the true nature of G-d, would totally undermine our existence on this
planet. To suggest otherwise is pure folly and just wishful atheist thinking. Demanding that G-d prove he exists or we reject him utterly, as if you folks make the rules. Funny and sad.
You have to admit, if there is a G-d, he's a heck of a lot smarter than you or me. Therefore to presume you can judge him based on your non knowledge of him is beyond arrogant.
Absolute rubbish. It's his "responsibility"? Who says so? You? Really? You have that kind of authority?
Oh, I need authority to make decisions now?
It is his responsibility when he decided to create; by taking that step he took upon himself responsibilities to the lesser creatures he made. It comes with the territory of parenting; ask your own parents. When you were born their plans and lives went out teh window, and you became their first most important priority aside which all other things fell to the wayside. For your God it's the opposite: you find yourself mired in his horrid game with no way out, and you'd better figure it out fast, and right the first time, or you'll be trampled underfoot, and THEN be blamed eternally for getting underfoot.
Yes it's his responsibility, since HE set the system up then decided to hide the most important bits of information. His plan is what imperils us. If we are his loved ones, he should do what is best for us, and not what is best for his selfish plan.
Or do you not know what love is?
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It's not about awareness. It's about knowing. Think about it.
I do think about it. They are the same thing. You don't 'know' something you aren't aware of.
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Do you enjoy watching a movie or sports event knowing the outcome, knowing the result? Some people do like to rematch movies or see old clips but for the most part we all enjoy the experience more when we are held in suspense.
Incompatible comparison
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If we knew g-d existed because he made his presence known, imagine the number of suicides or accidental seeming deaths. If heaven awaits, assuredly, it becomes much easier to take ones own life. Why not? Eternal bliss sure beats the trials and tribs of everyday life.
Suicide and accidental deaths?? In what sense? Don't be ridiculous. Since this God says suicide sends you to Hell this idea isn't worth considering. Once you realize that rule maker is right there to be seen, you know he's not kidding.
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It's the not knowing, for sure, that keeps us going, working to make this life better for those of us around us. If eternity awaits, without doubt, why heal the old or sick? They have a much better place to go, and we all will join them there, if we just believe....
Suffering still ensues beforehand. It is the ease of suffering we medicate for in terms of the elderly. We all know they don't have lots of time. Your reasoning here is just irrational.
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You see knowing the outcome, knowing the true nature of G-d, would totally undermine our existence on this planet. To suggest otherwise is pure folly and just wishful atheist thinking. Demanding that G-d prove he exists or we reject him utterly, as if you folks make the rules. Funny and sad.
Im not an atheist, but good attempt at erroneous poisoning of the well.
Knowing the true nature of God guarantees the good outcome for everyone. Picking and choosing while hiding the information is the bad idea. What is funny and sad is that Christians like you think you have any grasp of reason. The truth is your faith is based on confusion and lies, and you swallow it like candy. And make excuses for everything you find others understanding as the inherent evil of the system.
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You have to admit, if there is a G-d, he's a heck of a lot smarter than you or me. Therefore to presume you can judge him based on your non knowledge of him is beyond arrogant.
No, I don't have to admit that, when the analysis of the system he instigates basically makes your eternal bliss or torture a crap shoot based on potential false information.
You do not take vital information and then encrypt it so most people cannot get it. You don't hide it. You make it entirely plain and easy to understand. You do not set up the system so that people who didn't get it or just have doubts are then tortured for being confused, as if it's somehow their fault you were not crystal clear.
I am definitely smarter than this God, and could definitely make a far better system that doesn't imperil the people I 'love'. The fact that you admit you're not smarter, isn't really impressive.
Last edited by Heathen Hammer; 08-15-2012 at 12:37 AM..
You have to admit, if there is a G-d, he's a heck of a lot smarter than you or me. Therefore to presume you can judge him based on your non knowledge of him is beyond arrogant.
If you don't have all the info either, making the judgment that his system is actually sensible is also arrogant. These mystically hidden parts of knowledge about him, could be absolute garbage.
See, you are biased to assume that no matter what the evidence, God gets it right. Yet the evidence we do have supports the opposite.
EVERYthing he's ever made has been flawed. The creation, Man, the angels. He's never made anything that was actually as perfect as he claims to be; you could try submitting Jesus as the one example, but, he came long after the initial efforts, and he died, so, he wasn't really perfect; a perfect being would be immortal and immune or resistant to common harm. Otherwise why call it 'perfect' if it's as mundane as everything else? God had to resurrect him in order to erase the humiliating end he came to at teh hands of the Romans.
Then we have this immoral sin system. And the error-filled, confused Bible, which has led to countless offshoots and different interpretations of his religion [not counting the old, original one in Judaism and the newer upstart Islam]. Basically all his work is highly confused, often contradictory, or simply irrational.
A Post full of Irrationalities in the name of Convenience.
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Originally Posted by Wonderkid50
It's not about awareness. It's about knowing. Think about it. Do you enjoy watching a movie or sports event knowing the outcome, knowing the result? Some people do like to rematch movies or see old clips but for the most part we all enjoy the experience more when we are held in suspense.
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Originally Posted by rflmn
Hardly the same, now is it? What an absurd comparison. Christians will try for anything, it's obvious! PS: I'd rather not enjoy having to wait to see "whahh happuns?" with my life. Instead, my honest and thorough pursuit of the evidence has lead me to rather obvious and perfectly satisfactory conclusions.
But as I've realized, there are those of a separate sub-species that have evolved intellectually to be needy of having all the answers, of having no questions left in their existence, and of having a supreme parent Fa-Fig (father figure) in the house, as it were, all their lives.
Or... that other sub-species [us atheists, obviously...] who are more than content to know we can't possibly ever know all the answers [nor do that other sub-species; they just imagine they have them all...], and therefore we can and do invite our own native curiosity, where they quell and completely suppress it, calling such questioning Evil™, arrogant and disrespectful. and yet, your God apparently gave us the free will and some curiosity that brings us to such questioning. Why is that?
Our lives and eternal existence do not hang in the balance of a Seahawks game. If they did, then I suspect a lot of people would want to have a better understanding of the game. As well, I doubt if God's plan (being wildly hypothetical for a moment that He or Christ even exist...) should be essentially based on a game of chance.
If we knew g-d existed because he made his presence known, imagine the number of suicides or accidental seeming deaths. If heaven awaits, assuredly, it becomes much easier to take ones own life. Why not? {rflmn™ interjects: Indeed, why not? And so why make us suffer here until we die from some horible disease or act of violence? Hmmm. Doesn't make any sense to me... but then, I'm rational and consistent...} Eternal bliss sure beats the trials and tribs of everyday life.
It's the not knowing, for sure, that keeps us going, working to make this life better for those of us around us. If eternity awaits, without doubt, why heal the old or sick? They have a much better place to go, and we all will join them there, if we just believe....
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Originally Posted by curious_rflmn™
{Oh! Entrance is conditional only if you follow god's Holy ordinances, huh? What a jealous and demanding, a craven and shallow, god. And so... uhmmm...why would I want to go to His Holy Hotel?}
You see knowing the outcome, knowing the true nature of G-d, would totally undermine our existence on this planet. To suggest otherwise is pure folly and just wishful atheist thinking. Demanding that G-d prove he exists or we reject him utterly, as if you folks make the rules. Funny and sad.
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Originally Posted by astonished_rflmn™
Hardly. It's not us who demands you prove He exists, other than you always claim He does and that we should thus all bow to Him. The door-to-door walk-in evangelists who bother me all the time insist there is a God, and it's a sin to denounce or ignore Him. So who is being persistant and annoying here, and bringing up an undesirable subject? You prove to me that He exists. (Psstttt: Betcha can't!)
As in: You want me to believe in a fantasy that has not one shred of evidence other than you're awe-struck by a sunset or the mystical complexities of life, is hardly enough. As for us atheists trying to make the rules, wow! We just want to live by what we see and can test, not by some now-thoroughly disproven old myths that don't provide any useful information. Again, you try to viciously paint all independent-thinking atheists with a bad brush, instead of allowing us our own interpretations.
Yeah I know; it's hard to have the truth whispered behind you all the time, not to mention that you can also clearly see our points but are not allowed, or are desperately afraid, to admit it! So sad!
In the scheme of some imagined Greater Universal Plan, I'd ask you: why would He make us go through suffering in the first place? Why not "design" a world that already has us flitting about as angels? Why put us through all the travails we must endure, to witness the total arrogance and cruelty of our fellow man upon his own kind, or the ravages of incurable disease on both us and our innocent children?
If God could indeed make a "Grande Paradiso", why did He not do so in the first place? Don't give me that Convenient Nonsense that "we have to earn it", and "it separates the true believers", those who had faith in Him, from the disbelieving fakers (or as I prefer to call us atheists, those born with some enhanced level of intellectual curiosity; those who then became scientists, engineers, geologists, medical researchers, and so on). Why?
Nope, don't try to come up with some intermediary existence validation. Have your God just cut to making a plethora of already perfect people, and a carefully limited number of them as well (after all, why create hordes of crowds of people with free wills, and then continue to have to herd them all into one big gymnasium called Heaven's Gate? Or Hell, if they don't outright "please" His egotistical self. What a hoot!).
It's not logical nor necessary for Him to provide a planet plum-full of failed individuals whose actions (such as those of the Aurora, CO shooter and others) are so vile. Or the frequent occurrence of a Haitian or Japanese earthquake & worldwide tsunamis or volcanic eruptions that murder tens of millions of innocent people, many of whom firmly believed in Him, just to show His crass arrogance and vengeful temper. Huh? WTF!
Better that He, being a loving and giving God, just make it all heavenly in the first place!
Anything else, any other Answer of Selective Convenience by a babbling scientifically illiterate Christian denialist/apologist, is just that: side-skating the issues and making it up as you go along just to (badly...) fit the reality.
Truth is, it's all chance and chaos theory, easily demonstrated, and thus absent any benevolent God creator, who would, btw, also have to have come from an infinitely long line of ever-more-advanced predecessors, all made out of or created from... [what's the Christian favorite Genesis word again? Oh yeah...] "out of nothing".
It just t'ain't so, sonny.
You have to admit, if there is a G-d, he's a heck of a lot smarter than you or me. Therefore to presume you can judge him based on your non knowledge of him is beyond arrogant.
Oh nice ad hominem in response to some simple questions or debates. I WILL in fact "admit" instead that I'm a heck of a lot smarter than your imaginary God, in fact. There's no presuming going on here. Why? It's obvious I'm the better person, since I can think and reason and am not innately vengeful, spiteful or egotistical! And because I'd be at least capable of creating some continuity if I were to write the defining Sci-Fi novella. I'll bet God would get a stern "Letter of Rejection" if He'd submitted this one to any big publishing house!
And, I'd base my story on established and believable facts, not wild fairy tales that have been revised (by King James, for instance) so many times, it's in-credible! As shining examples of far better writing, with a more believable message, check out Frank Herbert in Dune, for instance, or L. Ron Hubbard, or any of any of the many other prime Sci-Fi or reality novel writers. They don't let the book go until their publisher has a go at it for "that durned continuity thing!". But sadly the bible's authors didn't understand continuity, reality, or common sense. And since that publication, the number of revisions, corrections, and embarrassing side-steppings it's required and engendered has only increased as we continue to unveil the facts about how things really work here!
After all, in a nutshell, you prefer to believe in an invisible entity, known to have never ever shown himself, who has temper tantrums (global inundation and subsequent death of literally millions of species types, but who later "regretted" it...), who allows folks to kill each other by the most vile ways possible, who regularly takes the lives of innocent children and even wholesome adults who have dedicated their lives to Him, who allows for some lizards to easily regenerate a lost limb, but cannot do it for His most important and selected species.
An entity who calls, in the bible, for the constant enslavement of certain races and genders, and who demands we give constant thanks to Him and his [non-existent...] son. And so on and so forth.
Hardly an Imposing Ruler of Great and Obvious Kindness, Generosity and Spiritual Wealth. No wonder he lost Satan, who saw that there was a lighter and more meaningful side of life!
Absolute rubbish. It's his "responsibility"? Who says so? You? Really? You have that kind of authority?
It's not about awareness. It's about knowing. Think about it. Do you enjoy watching a movie or sports event knowing the outcome, knowing the result? Some people do like to rematch movies or see old clips but for the most part we all enjoy the experience more when we are held in suspense. If we knew g-d existed because he made his presence known, imagine the number of suicides or accidental seeming deaths. If heaven awaits, assuredly, it becomes much easier to take ones own life. Why not? Eternal bliss sure beats the trials and tribs of everyday life.
It's the not knowing, for sure, that keeps us going, working to make this life better for those of us around us. If eternity awaits, without doubt, why heal the old or sick? They have a much better place to go, and we all will join them there, if we just believe....
You see knowing the outcome, knowing the true nature of G-d, would totally undermine our existence on this
planet. To suggest otherwise is pure folly and just wishful atheist thinking. Demanding that G-d prove he exists or we reject him utterly, as if you folks make the rules. Funny and sad.
You have to admit, if there is a G-d, he's a heck of a lot smarter than you or me. Therefore to presume you can judge him based on your non knowledge of him is beyond arrogant.
Interesting how quickly we go from bold assurances that there is evidence for God to paragraphs of hand waving and rationalization for why there isn't actually evidence after all.
Actually,there is evidence of G-d, you just reject it. The bible and associated documents are all "evidence". You just find them inadequate by your standards. So what you need or want is irrefutable evidence, most likely of a physical nature. G-d speaking in public for all to see, or something such that cannot be refuted.
Well, there is a very obvious reason why that kind of evidence doesn't exist, nor wil it ever, most likely. If it did, this blog site wouldn't exist. Everyone would believe. If not doing so meant eternal damnation, for sure, only a real idiot would do otherwise. Agreed?
Because G-d wants us to know him through deep soul searching and other such work, he has chosen not to make that available to us. He doesnt want automons or slaves, he wants sentient beings who choose to know him and have a relationship with him. He wants people to come to him by choice, of their own accord, not because there is no othe choice. Quite a simple explanation, really.
And it is the experience of faith that brings us to God.
[SIZE=3]...without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. [/SIZE]
Interesting how quickly we go from bold assurances that there is evidence for God to paragraphs of hand waving and rationalization for why there isn't actually evidence after all.
There's generally a lot of cognitive dissonance involved, so, this should be seen as par for the course. Unsatisfactory conclusions must be suppressed by the self, first, before the virus can be spread.
As the responses to Wonderkid and Vansdad argue, Faith is not evidence of anything but Faith and the claims of evidence of a particular personal God turn out to be more excuses as to why the evidence is actually not there. Which is just excuses to prop up the faith.
To relate to the thread title, the claim of design in the universe is really an example of what theists refer to as 'limited human understanding'. The universe looks designed because physical matter persists in more or less stable ways because those that didn't would long ago have ceased to exist. It takes an act of volition (or a random encounter) to change such a 'way' like a recurring planetary orbit. It takes no volition to just carry on in the same way. Design or design of order in the universe is a human misunderstanding or delusion or faith - based wishful thinking. It is indeed trying to justify faith in a god -claim or to try to find some of the evidence for God which really isn't there.
Actually,there is evidence of G-d, you just reject it.
I have heard this exact line trotted out to me so many times that I would be rich indeed if I had 1 dollar for each time. I would be EXACTLY twice as rich if I had another dollar for how many times the people saying it then went on to not present any evidence either.
You claim I reject it, but it is impossible to reject what has not been offered.
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Originally Posted by Wonderkid50
The bible and associated documents are all "evidence". You just find them inadequate by your standards.
My standard are not complex. Evidence for me is a three step procedure as follows:
1) State clearly and exactly what you are claiming.
2) List exactly what you think supports the claim made in 1)
3) Explain exactly how the things listed in 2 support what was claimed in 1).
Simply saying "Bible" at me therefore does not do 1 or 3 at all.
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Originally Posted by Wonderkid50
So what you need or want is irrefutable evidence, most likely of a physical nature.
Did I say that? Ever? I have a lot of my own words in my mouth, I do not need you putting yours there too. I have never once said I want "irrefutable evidence" and I have never once said I limit the evidence I will accept to the physical. Not once. Ever. So do not misrepresent me or build straw men of my position.
No, what I say and have always said is: I have yet to see a single shred of argument, data, evidence or reasons upon which to lend the claim there is a god entity even a modicum of credence.
Nothing about "physical" or "irrefutable" there at all son.
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A Post full of Irrationalities in the name of Convenience.
], and therefore we can and do invite our own native curiosity, where they quell and completely suppress it, calling such questioning Evil™, arrogant and disrespectful. and yet, your God apparently gave us the free will and some curiosity that brings us to such questioning. Why is that? 
