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I thought this thread began to get off course. Hope you guys don't mind me yanking the reigns a bit...
Moral values.....it's a great philosophical question: If God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist. An atheist would say that moral values are a product of our social and biological evolution. A Christian believes that our moral values come from something 'greater' than that which can be traced by a naturalistic path.
I think this should be the real issue of discussion in this thread. Avoiding this will just render this entire thread worthless, imho.
An atheist would say that moral values are a product of our social and biological evolution. A Christian believes that our moral values come from something 'greater' than that which can be traced by a naturalistic path.
Is true "morality" independent of cultural perspective(s)? Within my own culture, it would appear that morality is --to some degree, at least-- intertwined with, suffused within the predominant religous ideologies that exist there. I would think, however, that the true concept of what morality entails suspends both religious ideologies and cultural perspective...
I don't think you can empirically prove what drives humans to moral behaviors. You can demonstrate that humans make moral decisions or that societies have moral codes, and you can guess that humans make moral decisions in order to maintain their place under the protection of the larger community. But, like anything else in science, the question of "why" isn't something that is addressable with testable hypotheses.
But, like anything else in science, the question of "why" isn't something that is addressable with testable hypotheses.
Oh it is, people are generally followers because this is what they are taught throughout their entire lives.
I remember an American (or was it a Brittish?) psychological test were the test-subject had to ask question to another person and every time he answered wrong, the test-subject had to give him an elctric shock. With every wrong answer the voltage was upped.
Most subjects had no problem with obeying orders or getting advice from authority figures (man dressed as scientists) to do as they were told.
(obviously the electric shocks were fake and the people who answered the questions were all actors, but the subjects were unaware of this).
Conclusion most people do not question authority figures. Even when they make moral objections they still obey. Granted the test was probably from the 60's but I still think that it will hold.
And I don't believe that there were atheists in the 60's. The majority were most likely all Christians.
Like I said because from the day they were born people are conditioned to act like this. People are herd animals, they don't want to be seperated from the herd.
Why else do religions, sects and other groups use shunning as a severe punishment.
Originally Posted by sean98125Oh it is, people are generally followers because this is what they are taught throughout their entire lives.
I remember an American (or was it a Brittish?) psychological test were the test-subject had to ask question to another person and every time he answered wrong, the test-subject had to give him an elctric shock. With every wrong answer the voltage was upped.
Most subjects had no problem with obeying orders or getting advice from authority figures (man dressed as scientists) to do as they were told.
(obviously the electric shocks were fake and the people who answered the questions were all actors, but the subjects were unaware of this).
Conclusion most people do not question authority figures. Even when they make moral objections they still obey. Granted the test was probably from the 60's but I still think that it will hold.
And I don't believe that there were atheists in the 60's. The majority were most likely all Christians.
Migram and the later Zimbardo experiments show how conditioned we all are, and I contend we don't know just how far we would go untill placed in such a position.
This raises the difficulty with morality, in each individual how much of our percieved morality is ours and how much is adopted from conditioning. Religion is used to condition individuals and culture arrived at from societal religious long term beliefs robs one of independent thought, so self analysis becomes very difficult.
The World without morality is difficult to imagine but a World without good morality is evidenced all around us every day. The hope must be that we will, that is all religions, all cultures and all races, join together and put aside our petty selfish differences to face the challenge that an ever increasingly smaller World presents.
It would, indeed, be arrogant and ignorant to claim that people cannot be good without belief in God. But that was not the question.
The question was: can we be good without God? If morality is just a human convention, then why should we act morally, especially when it conflicts with self-interest? Or are we in some way held accountable for our moral decisions and actions?
We might act in precisely the same ways that we do in fact act, but in the absence of God, such actions would no longer count as good (or evil), since if God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.
Here's a video clip that explains it better than I can write it here. It's not that long. Watch it and then let me know what you think.
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Since God's existence cannot be proven the existence of moral values should answer your question.
Granted the test was probably from the 60's but I still think that it will hold.
People are herd animals, they don't want to be seperated from the herd.
