Moral argument for the existence of God (faith, pastor, preacher)
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So please give me an example at which you believe the conditions would be right for me to torture babies for my personal pleasure--not as worship, not because I don't want more kids, not for any reason but other than to just satisfy my personal enjoyment.
Otherwise, I'm not sure you have any reason to condemn Adolph Hitler, or Pol Pot...or even the current issue -- the country of Syria, for using chemical weapons on innocents. If morality is simply relative, then people ought to be able to do what they want.
I didn't say they ever would be right, personally I find the idea disgusting. But you said it also wasn't our place to judge what other people view as right, and wrong. So you are saying morality is basically subjective to the individual. This is the reason you argument fails, and if you can't understand that, then I don't know what to tell you. There is no moral absolute, because if there was we would have a general guide for it.Since morality is as even you admit subjective, than other factors come into play on why every society has separate standards on what they view, and don't view as correct.
I didn't say they ever would be right, personally I find the idea disgusting.
Good to know.
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But you said it also wasn't our place to judge what other people view as right, and wrong. So you are saying morality is basically subjective to the individual. This is the reason you argument fails, and if you can't understand that, then I don't know what to tell you.
Perhaps you misunderstood my point. I was speaking from the perspective that IF we believe there is no moral absolute, then it's up to the individual. I don't believe that, of course. I believe that wrong is wrong, regardless of who we are.
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There is no moral absolute, because if there was we would have a general guide for it.
If there is no moral absolute, then there must be a time when it would be moral for me to torture babies for my personal pleasure. Please tell me when that would be. I can't think of any.
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Since morality is as even you admit subjective, than other factors come into play on why every society has separate standards on what they view, and don't view as correct.
I've never said it was subjective--you misunderstood what I was saying. Or perhaps I simply phrased it in a confusing manner.
So PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE give me an example of a time when it would be moral to torture babies for your own personal pleasure. I'm not aware of any way it would be (and I hope you agree)....but IF, as you say, morality is not absolute, then there HAS TO BE a time when it would be moral.
So PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE give me an example of a time when it would be moral to torture babies for your own personal pleasure. I'm not aware of any way it would be (and I hope you agree)....but IF, as you say, morality is not absolute, then there HAS TO BE a time when it would be moral.
Why does there have to be? It it no way proves your point.
Please explain why things like murder of newborns, slavery, sex with children, etc. were considered perfectly fine by some civilizations.
By your own admission you said a number less than 100% found some things to be wrong. Why is it not 100%? What is your explanation for that?
I don't see why someone would believe it makes sense for god to define morality, but not humanity. If you let god define morality then every action, no matter how vile or atrocious becomes permissible if god says it is moral. You have to turn off any sense of empathy or reason in favor of obeying whatever command god gives you, no matter the harm or wickedness it spreads. This is how the example of Abraham relates to the moral argument. If god is the only way to judge morality, then you have to judge morals based on the nature of the moral compass of that divinity. In Genesis 22, god tells Abraham to go to the top of a mountain and sacrifice Isaac. Without question, Abraham gathers the wood and a knife to kill his son. This story says that god's moral compass permits child sacrifice. If someone accepts the moral argument as credible, then they have to say killing your child is morally acceptable. The fact most people find killing their child abhorrent says that our moral standard doesn't come from any deity.
Why does there have to be? It it no way proves your point.
Yes. It really does. If we can't think of a time when it would be moral....then we must conclude that there are some things that are always wrong. It doesn't matter who we are, or where we are---they are wrong.
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Please explain why things like murder of newborns, slavery, sex with children, etc. were considered perfectly fine by some civilizations.
They aren't following God's morality.
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By your own admission you said a number less than 100% found some things to be wrong. Why is it not 100%? What is your explanation for that?
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Originally Posted by Vizio
So PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE give me an example of a time when it would be moral to torture babies for your own personal pleasure. I'm not aware of any way it would be (and I hope you agree)....but IF, as you say, morality is not absolute, then there HAS TO BE a time when it would be moral.
Must have been when God told Abraham to start sacrificing Isaac. If you don't think that was torture for Isaac you don't think pulling nails is torture or waterboarding is.
What kind of deranged, despicable being would order a father to do that type of thing to his son?
As a product of my time, culture, geography and upbringing, I cannot either. Can you demonstrate that no one or no group of people has ever believed that some form of pedophelia is morally right? Without that, all you know is that you believe it to be an absolute, which is not the same as demonstrating that it is absolute...
Then perhaps you should investigate that before claiming it is categorically impossible. One option is Ayn Rand's Objectivism, another might be Weinbergs paper on non-natural non-theistic moral realism, or even the basic wiki page to get started. Ignorance of competing arguments is not the same as dealing with their objections.
Of course, I would expect no less. However, I am not making that argument, merely pointing out that you were not even acknowledging it when trying to form your dichotomy.
Must have been when God told Abraham to start sacrificing Isaac. If you don't think that was torture for Isaac you don't think pulling nails is torture or waterboarding is.
What kind of deranged, despicable being would order a father to do that type of thing to his son?
I'm just going to conclude that you guys are conceding the point. There is such a thing as absolute morality. If you insist on trying to derail it and hijack the thread, I'm just going to assume you can't answer the conversation.
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