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That depends. I personally think that those who can't accept evolution and stick to old myths are those that worship the Bible at least as much as they worship God.
Those that spend so much of their time fighting a losing battle against science are the ones I think don't have any sort of spiritual connection to their god. They have to find validation of their faith by proving the Bible is literally true. Yet if they had real relationships as some suggest they have, proving the Bible to be 100% literally true would be a useless and redundant effort.
Hello again Shirina.
I fear you've lost me somewhat. When you say "that depends," which part of my post were you referencing specifically? While I don't know that I agree with your sentiments exactly, I would certainly concure that attempting to find empirical support for biblical literalism is counterproductive both scientifically and spiritually.
The world was forfeited to the devil, so he has a heavy influence on the earth as well as the minds of nonbelievers.
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
It states in the Bible that in the last days, they will believe the two biggest lies. 1. That there was no creation. 2. That there was no flood.
2 Peter 3:5-6 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
Everything is just as the Bible describes so believers should just look up in anticipation of what is to come as the 'former things are passing away'
I am merely pointing out that this does not negate a belief in some god (or even a Christian god) necessarily.
In some ways I think Intelligent Design does negate a belief in a god. If one MUST believe in a religious interpretation of the Bible - so much so that one actively opposes the science that renders a literal interpretation impossible - it tells me that the bathwater, the baby, and even the tub were all thrown out the window. I think those who require validation that the Adam and Eve story is historical fact are standing on very shaky spiritual grounds. They've already negated their own belief in God but are searching for some means to stablize that shaky ground. And they do this by denouncing evolution, denouncing the Big Bang, and denouncing the inability to push their religion inside a science classroom. The only reason they have to believe in God is because the Bible tells them to, so their faith in God is directly linked to the Bible being 100% true. Without that, they have nothing.
On the chance that my previous post could be misconstrued, let's be clear: in this thread alone I have twice stated that ID is nothing to base one's faith on and have noted a book chapter that I dedicated to its false assumptions. It most certainly does NOT constitute acceptable scientific inquiry.
I am merely pointing out that this does not negate a belief in some god (or even a Christian god) necessarily. Interestingly, I hold the oft-ignored converse to be true as well. Even if the ID camp somehow proved the need for an intelligent creator, it would still be far,far away from proving the Christisn god true.
Thanks.
OK. But the failure if ID to make a case rather does negate the gap for God -just as it negates the case for creation.
Of course there is an unknown element as there is in evolution- a creator could still have started life off - all the time we have no proof of how it happened.
What we do have is evidence of what we do know about nature, cosmic origins and the development of life (that the Believers simply ignore and deny the evidence does not alter that) weights the case for natural causes against a cosmic creative mind.
So 'belief' as you say is certainly not justified logically nor evidentially. The Logical and evidential position is to give credit to the evidence and regard and god -claim as unsubstantiated and there not believable.
To credit, let alone believe as fact, any particular god-claim is even less logical.
We then get efforts to prove a particular god through the back -door by proving it exists through the Bible. But that is being increasingly regarded as unworthy of credit, just as much as ID.
In fact, the whole case for God is falling apart. This of course is what the believers claimed about the unbeliever case, but the recent debates must show that we are winning nearly all the points.
Ultimately the religious are not the scientists (some) but those that take up "the mantel" of atheist and agnostic.. those are the true religious types..
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
But yes the video's premise is to take a scientific discovery and cherry pick and quote-mine to fit it into a preconception of reality. In fact this is just hijacking science.
Oh, yah I agree with you.. right it is hijacking.. but the point is still true
What about the point.. forget about the message and it's deliverer?
The f@#%^ rotary engine was in your brain the whole time.. even after Roger Ravaud invented it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
Yes ... but theists just play the "complexity -- therefore god" card. Just like they play "Big and awesome ... therefore god", "Ancient, therefore god", "Unknown, therefor god", etc.
there is a middle road to this debate.. where both are true..
It'd be nice if people could reach it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyker
aren't acting much like Jesus, are they?
True.. but in worshiping Jesus.. their not looking within or acting like jesus.. which is what yeshua really tried to instruct
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
That depends. I personally think that those who can't accept evolution and stick to old myths are those that worship the Bible at least as much as they worship God.
Those that spend so much of their time fighting a losing battle against science are the ones I think don't have any sort of spiritual connection to their god. They have to find validation of their faith by proving the Bible is literally true. Yet if they had real relationships as some suggest they have, proving the Bible to be 100% literally true would be a useless and redundant effort.
I agree with you nice post..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
In some ways I think Intelligent Design does negate a belief in a god. If one MUST believe in a religious interpretation of the Bible - so much so that one actively opposes the science that renders a literal interpretation impossible - it tells me that the bathwater, the baby, and even the tub were all thrown out the window. I think those who require validation that the Adam and Eve story is historical fact are standing on very shaky spiritual grounds. They've already negated their own belief in God but are searching for some means to stablize that shaky ground. And they do this by denouncing evolution, denouncing the Big Bang, and denouncing the inability to push their religion inside a science classroom. The only reason they have to believe in God is because the Bible tells them to, so their faith in God is directly linked to the Bible being 100% true. Without that, they have nothing.
It seems to me there has been a war between Christians and scientists that has been brewing by both sides since the 1860's (Darwin) or farther back and was also renewed in the 1920's and was renewed again.. by this debate
I'm not really anti-scientist in this war.. the dogma of beliefs (as we now write our history books) was quite severe.. we were holding ourselves hostage-backwards through religious beliefs..
But what is quite obvious to me is.. this energy and this war.. needs to be brought to PEACE.. this energy should be dispensated.. from what I see of this thread.. we've done some decent good job so far.. many of your displays of energy are quite amazing.. or "well moderated"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
I think those who require validation that the Adam and Eve story is historical fact are standing on very shaky spiritual grounds. They've already negated their own belief in God but are searching for some means to stablize that shaky ground. And they do this by denouncing evolution, denouncing the Big Bang, and denouncing the inability to push their religion inside a science classroom. The only reason they have to believe in God is because the Bible tells them to, so their faith in God is directly linked to the Bible being 100% true. Without that, they have nothing.
Yes, excellent point.. I've heard it said this way.. those that preach the most.. BELIEVE the least.. what I mean is.. they know their belief in god and his rules is under a "poorly built foundation" so they PREACH their belief in the hopes that you will explain it to them???? cause they can't figure it out for themselves..
And then there's that old energy called "misery loves company" so hell if I'm a devout Christian and I'm miserable in my war with science/disbelief/myself.. might has well convert joe miller there and the rest to be in my pain and disbelief but "fake belief" with me.. cause misery loves company!
In some ways I think Intelligent Design does negate a belief in a god. If one MUST believe in a religious interpretation of the Bible - so much so that one actively opposes the science that renders a literal interpretation impossible - it tells me that the bathwater, the baby, and even the tub were all thrown out the window. I think those who require validation that the Adam and Eve story is historical fact are standing on very shaky spiritual grounds. They've already negated their own belief in God but are searching for some means to stablize that shaky ground. And they do this by denouncing evolution, denouncing the Big Bang, and denouncing the inability to push their religion inside a science classroom. The only reason they have to believe in God is because the Bible tells them to, so their faith in God is directly linked to the Bible being 100% true. Without that, they have nothing.
Hello again Shirina.
Again I would agree with you to a point. I would not personally comment on the chain of causality, but I do think that demanding biblical literalism does jeopardize one's religious position because it contradicts that which is widely known about the universe and life on Earth. Whether or not this is a reflection of a weak connection to god I cannot say.
In the end, the more claims one makes, the more one is opening himself up to being proven wrong. This is a serious problem for the biblical literalist who must make many claims - past, present, and future - in order to uphold the complete historical accuracy of the bible. Because he or she ascribes to absolute literalism, disproving any one of these claims brings down the whole house of cards, which I believe was your point more-or-less. On this assertion I would not argue.
Ultimately the religious are not the scientists (some) but those that take up "the mantel" of atheist and agnostic.. those are the true religious types..
I've watched those movies. How are they about the 'religion of science'?
How can one look out into infinite space - this huge endless place and imagine that we on this speck of dust with a bit of grey matter contained in our pitiful skulls are intelligent - and the universe is not?
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And I wish there weren't so many rabid anti-science hypocrites who never hesitate in running off to their doctor's office. 
might has well convert joe miller there and the rest to be in my pain and disbelief but "fake belief" with me.. cause misery loves company! 
