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If it's all according to HIS plan, why bother praying? Don't you see how ridiculous that is? The only time your prayer will be answered is if what you prayed for was part of his plan anyway -- in which case it would have happened whether you prayed or not.
The standard excuse for this is that prayer is supposed to be meditative and to promote submission to the will of god. And yet, while that type of prayer certainly exists, imprecatory prayer (prayer that makes requests or claims stated promises of god to his followers) is undeniably taught in the Bible also.
Ultimately by the time fundamentalists explain away unanswered imprecatory prayer they are left only with prayer-as-meditation-or-surrender, as they (very obliquely) admit that answers to imprecatory prayers are equivalent to random happenstance. And yet the Bible goes to great lengths to promote imprecatory prayer.
It seems to me that imprecatory prayer is held forth as a benefit and key part of the Christian value-proposition but anyone who has had significant experience with actual Real Life quickly figures out that this is bogus ... it's just that it's impolitic to admit it to your fellow believers, or to fail to keep up the hallelujah chorus of praise for answered prayer, no matter how strained or questionable the claims.
The reason that I know Christians don't really believe god answers prayer requests is because their first impulse when sick or injured is not to ask god to heal them; it's to call the doctor or ambulance or whatever. It is also true that they fear for their well-being or the well-being of their loved ones as much as anyone does when the diagnosis is incurable / fatal. About all that the belief-system actually provides them with in a tight spot is a set of rationalizations for disaster -- not actual protection from disaster.
Blame is predicated on an act of Will. Why must everything that happens be an act of God's Will? That is a primitive notion retained by the church. Our ignorant ancestors believed God was behind absolutely everything . . . including their own personal decisions and acts. I am at a loss to understand why we have not outgrown that silly superstition. God is what He is and there are things that just exist as part of our reality, period.
I understand that you pick and choose what you like out of the Bible (That there was a real God (and Jesus? I honestly don't recall, offhand)who promoted love) but others pick and choose differently than you do.
For those that believe more of the Bible stories than you do, he is responsible for everything.
Blame is predicated on an act of Will. Why must everything that happens be an act of God's Will? That is a primitive notion retained by the church. Our ignorant ancestors believed God was behind absolutely everything . . . including their own personal decisions and acts. I am at a loss to understand why we have not outgrown that silly superstition. God is what He is and there are things that just exist as part of our reality, period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold
I understand that you pick and choose what you like out of the Bible (That there was a real God (and Jesus? I honestly don't recall, offhand)who promoted love) but others pick and choose differently than you do.
For those that believe more of the Bible stories than you do, he is responsible for everything.
It is fortunate that the existence and attributes of God are NOT dependent upon what ANY human beings think or believe ABOUT God. That is why they are beliefs.
It is fortunate that the existence and attributes of God are NOT dependent upon what ANY human beings think or believe ABOUT God. That is why they are beliefs.
I'm happy you've finally admitted that your claims about God are only your beliefs. Unfortunately, reality doesn't necessarily correlate with what we believe.
It is fortunate that the existence and attributes of God are NOT dependent upon what ANY human beings think or believe ABOUT God. That is why they are beliefs.
For whom is that fortunate?
The way you put that translates into 'there is a god' even for those that don't believe in one.
To an atheist, that is just an unsubstantiated claim for there being one.
It is fortunate that the existence and attributes of God are NOT dependent upon what ANY human beings think or believe ABOUT God. That is why they are beliefs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
I'm happy you've finally admitted that your claims about God are only your beliefs. Unfortunately, reality doesn't necessarily correlate with what we believe.
There has always been a failure on the part of my critics to distinguish between my substantive presentations and my beliefs and conclusions from them. The substantive material that forms the BASIS for my hypotheses and extrapolations is ignored completely so that the assertions can be made that the beliefs and conclusions are "baseless" and there is "not one shred of evidence," etc. Baseless is supposed to mean there is absolutely nothing plausible on which to base the beliefs and conclusions . . . as in "made up out of whole cloth." That has never been true of my beliefs and conclusions.
It is fortunate that the existence and attributes of God are NOT dependent upon what ANY human beings think or believe ABOUT God. That is why they are beliefs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold
For whom is that fortunate?
The way you put that translates into 'there is a god' even for those that don't believe in one.
To an atheist, that is just an unsubstantiated claim for there being one.
Much as it may distress you, that is something that cannot be dismissed because "We do not know." Your non-belief is a preference based on that ignorance.
There has always been a failure on the part of my critics to distinguish between my substantive presentations and my beliefs and conclusions from them. The substantive material that forms the BASIS for my hypotheses and extrapolations is ignored completely so that the assertions can be made that the beliefs and conclusions are "baseless" and there is "not one shred of evidence," etc. Baseless is supposed to mean there is absolutely nothing plausible on which to base the beliefs and conclusions . . . as in "made up out of whole cloth." That has never been true of my beliefs and conclusions.
Yet, all you've provided is the story of your supposed revelation during meditation. I'm not sure that anything less plausible can be presented. It certainly isn't substantive.
There has always been a failure on the part of my critics to distinguish between my substantive presentations and my beliefs and conclusions from them. The substantive material that forms the BASIS for my hypotheses and extrapolations is ignored completely so that the assertions can be made that the beliefs and conclusions are "baseless" and there is "not one shred of evidence," etc. Baseless is supposed to mean there is absolutely nothing plausible on which to base the beliefs and conclusions . . . as in "made up out of whole cloth." That has never been true of my beliefs and conclusions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
Yet, all you've provided is the story of your supposed revelation during meditation. I'm not sure that anything less plausible can be presented. It certainly isn't substantive.
Yet again you fail to consider the complete rationale based on existing science that is presented in my Synthesis as the basis upon which I extrapolated my hypotheses. That rationale (NOT my experiences) is the scientifically plausible basis that confirmed (to me) the validity of my personal experiences.
Yet again you fail to consider the complete rationale based on existing science that is presented in my Synthesis as the basis upon which I extrapolated my hypotheses. That rationale (NOT my experiences) is the scientifically plausible basis that confirmed (to me) the validity of my personal experiences.
I must have missed your Synthesis. Please direct me to it and I might be convinced.
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