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No, I mean Christmas, the time when even governments close to celebrate the birth of Christ. The only thing your kind has explained is the need to revise history. Future generations are going to believe that the founding fathers were all hardcore atheists if the trend continues.
WBC is a single church. The good far outweighs the bad, but people like you just chomp at the bit to post anything that is negative about Christians.
What I want is to simply see religious freedom and traditions preserved. You can't tell me there is one iota of harm in having the Gideon Bible in a hotel room. There is no harm in allowing a coach to pray with his team. There is no harm in a cross shaped memorial. There is no harm in allowing a bakery to refuse serving gay weddings.
You wouldn't be attacking God and his people with such venom and disrespect if you truly believe He did not exist. Of course, you need to say this over and over to convince yourself that there is no God. But you can shout it to the heavens. It won't change the reality that God is real and exists.
Right, Christmas, the pagan holiday that Christianity stole. We are talking about the same thing Jeff. No one is saying that the founding fathers were hardcore atheists, but they certainly weren't hardcore Christians. Deists or theists maybe, but not Christians.
I actually said, "churches LIKE the WBC". It isn't the only crazy church around. Fact is, every time you people start telling gay people or atheists, or whoever you don't like, that they are second class citizens to you good Christians, you are causing harm. I know you won't see it that way because of how you were brainwas......errr.... raised, but that is the way it is. If it weren't for the religious, gay people would be much more accepted, since all the hate comes from your side.
Can you tell me that there is one iota of harm by them NOT being in the hotel room? Is there one iota of harm if that coach DOESN'T pray with his team? Is there any harm in there NOT being a cross memorial? Can you tell me there is any harm in them being decent human beings and serving the loving gay couple?
Keep believing what your pastor shoves down your throat about atheists/agnostics, Jeff. It just makes you look all the more ignorant when you ignore what ACTUAL atheists/agnostics tell you about their beliefs and why they hold them. We are not attacking God (as we have told you repeatedly), we are attacking the people who think they deserve special treatment for being religious. We are attacking organized religion, or certain belief systems that are harmful. (Not all of us do these things) That is not the same thing as attacking God.
I actually know a number of atheists. About a quarter of the members of my church are atheists, by most definitions of the word. Their intention is precisely as I and others have already relayed: They seek the religious freedom guaranteed to them by our nation's laws, including elimination of the scourge of Christian privilege that is pervasive in our society. That's it. They're perfectly happy with me practicing my religion as long as it doesn't mean having the government endorse religious beliefs.
Anyone who needs the government to throw their religion in other people's faces doesn't seem to have much confidence in their own religious beliefs.
Wrong …
No. What I wrote is correct. It doesn't fit the corrupt narrative you prefer, but it is correct, nonetheless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teilhard
Rick Dawkins, e.g. (essentially the POPE of the "New Atheists") once signed a petition asking the British guv'mint to make it a CRIME to teach "religion" (ANY religion) to children … He later recanted …
Dawkins is one atheist. You implied that atheists in general are as you characterized them. It isn't even worth arguing with you about whether what you said about one atheist is true or not, because that is one person. The fact that you hinge your entire characterization of atheists on one person is beyond ridiculous. It borders on willful deception.
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Originally Posted by cupper3
please define what religion is then.
The word "religion" stems from roots meaning "to bind together". A religion is an organized collection of beliefs and values that are generally shared by its adherents, i.e., those folks who are "bound together" by that religion.
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Originally Posted by meow667
If you want to place Qu'rans in rooms then start staying at Motel 6 and leaving the things behind.
First, this thread is about a state-run institution, not a privately-owned hotel. So that's an immediate difference. Second, we already established very early in the thread how even a concerted effort by Muslims to place Qur'ans in hotel rooms, a la the Gideons, would not be Equal Access, because of the disproportionate effect of Dominionism on the behavior of Christians versus non-Christians in American society.
Folks. If you plan on joining a 800+ post thread midstream, or casually duck into it from time to time, then either go back and read the messages you missed, or expect to be taken to task for trying to rehash matters already discussed in your absence.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
What I want is to simply see religious freedom and traditions preserved.
That sentence is self-contradictory. It is exactly the same as a slave owner in 1864 saying that they want to see personal liberty for all and their tradition of slave owning preserved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
You can't tell me there is one iota of harm in having the Gideon Bible in a hotel room.
We already have outlined the parameters of the harm of state endorsement of religion for you. You've refuse to acknowledge them. Repeatedly asking for the same details over and over and repeatedly refusing to even acknowledge that your inquiry has already been satisfied is ridiculous. Have the integrity, at least, to stop doing this. Say that you don't accept what we've told you the harm is instead trying to make it seem like we haven't already told you repeatedly.
Right, Christmas, the pagan holiday that Christianity stole. We are talking about the same thing Jeff. No one is saying that the founding fathers were hardcore atheists, but they certainly weren't hardcore Christians. Deists or theists maybe, but not Christians.
Really, and just how many Americans do you think view Christmas as "oh we are celebrating our pagan roots!" No, it is the celebration of the birth of Christ and guess what, MOST people enjoy the tradition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by southernbored
I actually said, "churches LIKE the WBC". It isn't the only crazy church around. Fact is, every time you people start telling gay people or atheists, or whoever you don't like, that they are second class citizens to you good Christians, you are causing harm. I know you won't see it that way because of how you were brainwas......errr.... raised, but that is the way it is. If it weren't for the religious, gay people would be much more accepted, since all the hate comes from your side.
From every extremist church you might find, I can show you a hundred churches that preach love and forgiveness, not hate. I see plenty of hate for Christians though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by southernbored
Can you tell me that there is one iota of harm by them NOT being in the hotel room? Is there one iota of harm if that coach DOESN'T pray with his team? Is there any harm in there NOT being a cross memorial? Can you tell me there is any harm in them being decent human beings and serving the loving gay couple?
Yep I can. There is no way that the Word of God and prayer causes harm. None. There is a lot more harm in forcing people to go against their religious morals and participate in an immoral ceremony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by southernbored
Keep believing what your pastor shoves down your throat about atheists/agnostics, Jeff. It just makes you look all the more ignorant when you ignore what ACTUAL atheists/agnostics tell you about their beliefs and why they hold them. We are not attacking God (as we have told you repeatedly), we are attacking the people who think they deserve special treatment for being religious. We are attacking organized religion, or certain belief systems that are harmful. (Not all of us do these things) That is not the same thing as attacking God.
My pastor doesn't have to convince me about the dark side of atheists. I experience first hand. I have yet to meet a single atheist who actually friendly towards Christians, yourself included.
That sentence is self-contradictory. It is exactly the same as a slave owner in 1864 saying that they want to see personal liberty for all and their tradition of slave owning preserved.
Does your side ever have any examples beyond using the crutch of racism? Ok ,you got one single tradition in history that needed to be eradicated. To even remotely suggest that the Gideon Bible causes harm on the level of racism and slavery is egregiously overblown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU
We already have outlined the parameters of the harm of state endorsement of religion for you. You've refuse to acknowledge them. Repeatedly asking for the same details over and over and repeatedly refusing to even acknowledge that your inquiry has already been satisfied is ridiculous. Have the integrity, at least, to stop doing this, saying that you don't accept what we've told you the harm is instead trying to make it seem like we haven't already told you repeatedly.
No, you failed to show how a Bible in a drawer is an official endorsement of the Christian religion. It is a tradition going back 100 years. Guess what, society didn't fall into ruin as a result! In fact, some people were rescued from suicide. Can you admit that factor is a GOOD thing?
I have no doubt that if this involved any other text beyond the Bible, there would not be a word of complaint from your camp.
Does your side ever have any examples beyond using the crutch of racism?
Does your side ever respond to substantive condemnation of the perspective for which you advocate, when accompanied by a very relevant analogy, without trying to deflect, dodge or otherwise evade responding to the condemnation with integrity?
Regardless: Slavery isn't racism. And neither is a crutch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Ok ,you got one single tradition in history that needed to be eradicated.
Women serving as clergy. TWO. Stoning adulterers. THREE. Shall I go on?
What's interesting is that all the worthwhile portions of Christianity are present in my religion, and practically none of the worthless portions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
To even remotely suggest that the Gideon Bible causes harm on the level of racism and slavery is egregiously overblown.
Good thing I didn't say that. But you're still trying to slither away from acknowledging that you have regularly refused to acknowledge the minority religious experience in this country. Your callous disregard for the experiences of others is perhaps another worthless portion of Christianity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
No, you failed to show how a Bible in a drawer is an official endorsement of the Christian religion.
No, we were successful in doing so. You just refuse to acknowledge it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
It is a tradition going back 100 years. Guess what, society didn't fall into ruin as a result!
Yet, during that time, Muslims, and Jews, and atheists, etc., have all regularly been subjected to reprehensible treatment at the hands of Dominionist-afflicted society.
Even though you cannot bring yourself to admit it.
(1) Really, and just how many Americans do you think view Christmas as "oh we are celebrating our pagan roots!" No, it is the celebration of the birth of Christ and guess what, MOST people enjoy the tradition.
(2)From every extremist church you might find, I can show you a hundred churches that preach love and forgiveness, not hate. I see plenty of hate for Christians though.
(3) Yep I can. There is no way that the Word of God and prayer causes harm. None. There is a lot more harm in forcing people to go against their religious morals and participate in an immoral ceremony.
(4) My pastor doesn't have to convince me about the dark side of atheists. I experience first hand. I have yet to meet a single atheist who actually friendly towards Christians, yourself included.
(1) Tsk tsk Jeff. You didn't respond to the majority of my post. Yes, people celebrate it as so, but that isn't its origins, so it is not inherently a Christian thing. I celebrate Christmas too, believe it or not. No response to the founding fathers not being Christian?
(2) Ok, sure you can. I can show you 100 for every 100 you show me that do very little, if anything to help their community. Or at the very least, not enough. Look at Bellevue Baptist in Memphis for the type of church that doesn't do nearly enough (unless you count lining their own pockets and getting rich). Plus, I am not just talking about churches. Christians cause harm all the time. You do so when you start acting like anyone not Christian is beneath you. The churches I come across, at least the ones here in the south, are almost exclusively anti-gay, anti-education, and want to use politics to encroach on others. These are harmful things. Even if they have a soup kitchen or something, that doesn't take away from harm done. You don't see hate FOR Christians. You see people who are trying to keep Christians from forcing their beliefs down peoples throats. These are not the same thing. If they are, I guess that proves that you hate gays, atheists, and all sorts of others, huh?
(3) Here, I will copy all of the others that you ignored, and/or didn't answer. You seem to have answered as to why there is no harm in them doing such things, but that is not what I asked.
Can you tell me that there is one iota of harm by them NOT being in the hotel room? Is there one iota of harm if that coach DOESN'T pray with his team? Is there any harm in there NOT being a cross memorial?
(4) Oh, it is pretty clear that you have been told things about atheists that aren't true. Either that, or you are the one telling other people things that are not true of atheists. So which is it? I am plenty friendly to Christians. I work with about 100 of them, and have no issues with them. You know why? They aren't spouting nonsense and trying to deny rights to people, and force their religion on others. You see, it isn't Christians we have an issue with, Jeff.
Good thing I didn't say that. But you're still trying to slither away from acknowledging that you have regularly refused to acknowledge the minority religious experience in this country. Your callous disregard for the experiences of others is perhaps another worthless portion of Christianity.
Yet, during that time, Muslims, and Jews, and atheists, etc., have all regularly been subjected to reprehensible treatment at the hands of Dominionist-afflicted society.
Even though you cannot bring yourself to admit it.
Jeff doesn't care about the experience of others, unless those others are Christians of course. This seems to be a running trend when it comes to fundamentalists.
Yes, there have been many people mistreated by societies dominated by religion, and I (and many others) will go to great lengths to make sure that doesn't happen again.
Seeking to prevent women from access to birth control.
Gosh there are thousands and thousands of examples. Another one that comes to mind is forcing Jewish children to be inundated by recognition of Christian holidays at school. I remember a childhood friend of mine who was kicked out of choir because she refused to sing songs with lyrics that explicitly acknowledge Jesus as savior.
(1) Tsk tsk Jeff. You didn't respond to the majority of my post. Yes, people celebrate it as so, but that isn't its origins, so it is not inherently a Christian thing. I celebrate Christmas too, believe it or not. No response to the founding fathers not being Christian?
Oh I can dig up plenty of quotes from the founding fathers which demonstrate belief in Jesus Christ and clear respect for the Bible. And you'll probably counter with some other quote. Do you really want to play the quote game?
Quote:
Originally Posted by southernbored
(2) Ok, sure you can. I can show you 100 for every 100 you show me that do very little, if anything to help their community. Or at the very least, not enough. Look at Bellevue Baptist in Memphis for the type of church that doesn't do nearly enough (unless you count lining their own pockets and getting rich). Plus, I am not just talking about churches. Christians cause harm all the time. You do so when you start acting like anyone not Christian is beneath you. The churches I come across, at least the ones here in the south, are almost exclusively anti-gay, anti-education, and want to use politics to encroach on others. These are harmful things. Even if they have a soup kitchen or something, that doesn't take away from harm done. You don't see hate FOR Christians. You see people who are trying to keep Christians from forcing their beliefs down peoples throats. These are not the same thing. If they are, I guess that proves that you hate gays, atheists, and all sorts of others, huh?
And when was the last time you darkened the door of a church? Atheists are almost completely clueless about ministries and community help that churches are doing behind the scenes. Yes, churches do not support homosexuality because it's a sin. No ,I see HATE for Christians. I see atheists relentless mocking and attacking Christians online every day. I see gunmen in America asking victims if they are Christians and then murdering them in cold blood. I see the stereotyping and belittling of Christians with derogatory terms like fundies or calling God a sky fairy as an expression of that hatred. Don't try to white wash it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by southernbored
Can you tell me that there is one iota of harm by them NOT being in the hotel room? Is there one iota of harm if that coach DOESN'T pray with his team? Is there any harm in there NOT being a cross memorial?
Destruction of religious freedom. There's your harm right there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by southernbored
(4) Oh, it is pretty clear that you have been told things about atheists that aren't true. Either that, or you are the one telling other people things that are not true of atheists. So which is it? I am plenty friendly to Christians. I work with about 100 of them, and have no issues with them. You know why? They aren't spouting nonsense and trying to deny rights to people, and force their religion on others. You see, it isn't Christians we have an issue with, Jeff.
In other words, as long as they keep quiet about their faith, you are ok with them. You would think I could find just one, just one who could tolerate a different of opinion on religious topics and didn't come off completely disrespectful and rude.
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