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Imagine if you went up to a friend and had a conversation like this:
You: Hey Jane, how are you? I want to tell you about a new friend I just met. They have given me such peace in life just by meeting them.
Friend: Really? Wow, sounds great, they must be special. When did you meet this person?
You: Well actually we have never met in person.
Friend: Really? So you have never spoken over the phone or e-mailed or met in person?
You: No, not really, but I have a strong connection to this person and a relationship with them.
Friend: Wow, sounds different.
You: Yeah, it's not like other relationships people have, it's special.
Friend: So just to clarify, you have never met or spoken IN person or communicated by letter and such?
You: Nope. This relationship is so different.
Friend: (Thinking to themselves....how in the world can they think they have a relationship? They haven't even met or anything else. Seems creepy to me. I think my friend is maybe having some issues about making stuff up including so called "friendships" and "relationships". Sounds like they could use some help from somebody who works with these issues.)
Christians: You have a personal relationship with YOURSELVES and YOUR THOUGHTS. Accept this and realize the whole "personal relationship with Jesus" is not only creepy but delusional. The only so called relationship you are having is with an IDEA not a REALITY.
Non Christians: You have a right to your opinion and beliefs just like Christians do.
Accept this and realize the whole "what I as a non christian believes is the truth no questions allowed" is
not only creepy but delusional.
The only so called opinion you are having is an idea and not a reality.
Bless you.
Non Christians: You have a right to your opinion and beliefs just like Christians do.
Accept this and realize the whole "what I as a non christian believes is the truth no questions allowed" is
not only creepy but delusional.
The only so called opinion you are having is an idea and not a reality.
Bless you.
You will doubtless be delighted then to know that we DO accept the right of each person to their opinion and are not making truth claims or disallowing questions.
What we are doing is taking a belief position (unbelief in this case) and expressing the reason for that position (we have not seen evidence or argument that would justify our belief) just as you claim the right to do.
Now who is asking who to Just Shut Up here? I don't think it's me.
Who is refusing to have a discussion here? I don't think it's me.
If you have logical argument or actual evidence for YOUR belief position then step up to the plate with it.
As to the notion that my opinion is not reality ... I think it is far more likely to reflect reality but no, I can't disprove your deity any more than you can prove it. Lacking as we do a testable hypothesis for a personal invisible god, (dis)proof is not possible for either of us. In that case, one of two situations obtains.
1) You are making a knowledge claim about your god, in which case you have the burden of proof as the person making the positive claim.
2) You are not making a knowledge claim about your god, in which case we have a draw.
It is probable that you are doing (1) or you wouldn't bother to attempt to shut others down. Also you likely are unable to substantiate your positive truth claim or you would substantiate it rather than tell others to shut the heck up.
It's not for you? Great. Don't waste your time ridiculing people for something you (supposedly) don't care about and don't believe.
Try to see it from our perspective.
Here is a quote from Sam Harris. I'm paraphrasing from a longer version of his speech you can read here Sam Harris--The Obscenity of Faith
Quote:
God created the cultural isolation of the Hindus; he engineered the circumstance of their deaths in ignorance of revelation, and then he created the penalty for this ignorance, which is an eternity of conscious torment in fire.
On the other hand, your run-of-the-mill serial killer in America, who spent his life raping and torturing children, need only come to God, come to Jesus on death row, and after a final meal fried chicken, he's going to spend eternity in heaven after death.
Ok—one thing should be crystal clear to you: this vision of life has absolutely nothing to do with moral accountability.
Just think about the Muslims at this moment who are blowing themselves up, convinced that they are agents of God's will. There's absolutely nothing that Dr. Craig can say against their behavior in moral terms, apart from his own faith-based claim that they're praying to the wrong God. If they had the right god, what they were doing would be good on divine command theory. Now I'm obviously not saying that Dr. Craig or all religious people are psychopaths and psychotics, but this, to me, this is the true horror of religion: it allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions what only lunatics could believe on their own. If you wake up tomorrow morning thinking that saying a few Latin words over your pancakes is gonna turn them into the body of Elvis Presley, you have lost your mind. But if you think more or less the same thing about a cracker and the body of Jesus, you're just a Catholic.
For the purposes of the thread you can just focus on the bolded, but I included some of the wider issues for context.
Lets be straight, if billions of people believed that they had a personal relationship with Elvis, you would think you were living in the twilight zone. Admit it. You'd think everyone had lost their minds, right?
This is how it feels for us non-believers.
Since the earliest age I have never understood how grown adults bought into the concept that they actually have a personal relationship with a guy dead some 2000 years.
As a child I was told and accepted that it was wrong to lie (still do have strong opinions about that).
I remember I used to secretly cross my fingers in church - as kids used to do - it was my way of being honest with myself when I had to recite things about this concept of Jesus apparently still being alive, because I knew it wasn't true. I couldn't understand how adults believed it.
I just think there are billions of adults who were a lot more gullible at an early age. Sorry, but that's my opinion.
Now this is a forum. About religion. Personally I think no discussion about religion should be out of bounds. I have my opinion. You have yours. That's what free speech is about. If my opinion offends you, there's nothing we can do about that because it's just that my opinion differs from yours.
Well...I can tell by your post that Christian Beliefs really bother you a lot and cause you angst.
That's a tough one...since a third of the world is Christian and it veritably permeates the planet, especially the United States, and Texas is a Poster-Child of Christianity. Unless you stay holed up in your home (don't watch television), it will be in your face, everywhere you look...a constant reminder.
Since you are, in fact, helpless and powerless to do a thing about that...I hope you are able to reconcile your negative feelings about it.
Good luck to you...you are gonna need it.
Opinion does not equate to 'angst' Gldn.
As I said above, this a religious discussion forum where people have opinions about things. We are here to chat about them.
Expressing those opinions does not equate to 'angst', otherwise every single person on this forum is apparently full of 'angst'.
As I said above, this a religious discussion forum where people have opinions about things. We are here to chat about them.
Expressing those opinions does not equate to 'angst', otherwise every single person on this forum is apparently full of 'angst'.
Being around, and in direct contact, with so many people, for so long, I have gotten pretty good at "reading" people.
The OP notes, in no uncertain terms & replete with a mocking fictitious/hypothetical conversation...that he is surrounded by people he finds to be "creepy" and "delusional".
It would certainly be understood that would cause one feelings of malaise to be in that circumstance. I find it difficult to make any other assessment of it.
Also...the OPs post drips with "angst"...the way my posts convey the twisted amusement I get being a wiseguy. But, then again, I admit it.
I noted my understanding of the circumstance in my response...and wished Texan luck in being stuck in a situation he won't be able to change, that he feels that way about. I'm sure you were, like all others, deeply moved by the feelings of intense concern and sympathy emanating from my words!
And, I like this thread a lot more now...cuz it resulted in an exchange with you.
Imagine if you went up to a friend and had a conversation like this:
You: Hey Jane, how are you? I want to tell you about a new friend I just met. They have given me such peace in life just by meeting them.
Friend: Really? Wow, sounds great, they must be special. When did you meet this person?
You: Well actually we have never met in person.
Friend: Really? So you have never spoken over the phone or e-mailed or met in person?
You: No, not really, but I have a strong connection to this person and a relationship with them.
Friend: Wow, sounds different.
You: Yeah, it's not like other relationships people have, it's special.
Friend: So just to clarify, you have never met or spoken IN person or communicated by letter and such?
You: Nope. This relationship is so different.
Friend: (Thinking to themselves....how in the world can they think they have a relationship? They haven't even met or anything else. Seems creepy to me. I think my friend is maybe having some issues about making stuff up including so called "friendships" and "relationships". Sounds like they could use some help from somebody who works with these issues.)
Christians: You have a personal relationship with YOURSELVES and YOUR THOUGHTS. Accept this and realize the whole "personal relationship with Jesus" is not only creepy but delusional. The only so called relationship you are having is with an IDEA not a REALITY.
In this day and age of telling men they can decide to just be a woman by putting on a dress and then using the women's locker room, you choose to single out the "relationship with Jesus" as delusional?
In this day and age of telling men they can decide to just be a woman by putting on a dress and then using the women's locker room, you choose to single out the "relationship with Jesus" as delusional?
Really?
So, are you moving on from bashing gays to bashing transvestites and transsexuals?
Or just including them in your all-purpose LGBT bashing?
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