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Since the verb נַעֲשֶׂה is a cohortative, especially in clause-initial position, it is a desiderative proposition that, like הָבָה in places such as Genesis 11:7
indicate that the plural pronouns in both passages (Gen 1:26; 11:7) refer to God and a separate and distinct addressee. Of course, this means that the plural pronoun does not refer to God as plural, but that God is addressing other beings and that these beings are included in the plural pronoun - not just God. Additionally, grammatically the passage ilicits agreement from the other parties.
Note that it is God - singular - who creates humanity. But you surely noticed this.
Grammatically, this is what the Biblical Hebrew shows.
You are free to demonstrate otherwise, but this would probably get you kicked out of a Hebrew 101 class.
For the rest reading, the above are just some of the difficult grammatical details I omitted in my earlier post, as entire books have been written on this issue alone:
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Originally Posted by whoppers
Grammatically, God introduces himself using the first person plural pronoun and this is repeated several times.
The grammatical features of the construction guarantee that the referent of the 1p pronoun is not singular ("God" alone), but consists of multiple entities.
Further grammatical details in the surrounding language strongly suggest that the referents of the plural pronoun are equally involved in the decision-making process to institute the creation of humanity (even though it is God singularly who creates them).
The Priestly Author has deliberately used these grammatical markers of 1st person plurality.
Since, as H. Gunkel wrote over a hundred years ago, "the earlier interpretation, that an allusion to the Trinity occurs here, can no longer be considered" (Genesis p. 112), we are then left with the conclusion that seems to be reached upon using both biblical and extra-biblical evidence: God is consulting other members of the Divine Council: other gods, whatever their status may be.
Do you really not understand that "us" and "our" requires more than one?
Let's hear your explanation for this one:
God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
“How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked?Selah
Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
I say, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;...
~ Psalm 82:1-6(a) - Revised Stand Version
Then consider this passage:
Remember the days of old,
consider the years of many generations;
ask your father, and he will show you;
your elders, and they will tell you. When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
For the Lord’s portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage. ~ Deuteronomy 32:7-9 - Revised Standard Version
And then this:
Let the heavens praise thy wonders, O Lord,
thy faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones!
For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord? Who among the heavenly beings[b] is like the Lord,
a God feared in the council of the holy ones,~ Psalm 89:5-7
Irrelevant. it is reinforced in the Bible and today, all conservative denominations accept the Trinity. Even some liberal denominations accept it.
No, it's not irrelevant at all. It shows that for more than 300 year the Church couldn't decide on the issue...and then, they decided by a show of hands!
Irrelevant. it is reinforced in the Bible and today, all conservative denominations accept the Trinity. Even some liberal denominations accept it.
The Trinity is a monument to human ignorance about the true source of personhood - our consciousness. There is no hypostatic nonsense or kenosis or any other nonsense jargon. It is no mystery. God IS consciousness (Spirit) and Jesus brought God's consciousness (Holy Spirit) to His human consciousness connecting us all.to God. God IS Spirit (consciousness). God IS agape. God's Holy Spirit is agape. Jesus brought God's perfect Holy Spirit of agape to His human consciousness(Spirit).That is how they are all referring to one God. The separate persons nonsense is just that nonsense.
Yes, we have the usual Fundie troll unfortunately.
It is amusing that those who can't provide the evidence for their OPINIONS, find excused not to and blame it on the ones ask for it. How absurd. What is even more amusing is that since they can't provide any evidence when ask, they show their great debating intellect by becoming insulting. You secular fundies are a great amusement for me.
Another secular fundie usual excuse.
<<
The usual secular fundie rhetoric. All this rhetoric simply because they give an OPINION for which they have no evidence and get called on it. You have no idea what I keep up with and I am confident you don't have a clue about the latest Biblical scholarship. Asking is not demanding. Another secular fundie device is to embellish what they say thinking it will seem more credible. They need to think again.
Give me your evidence that you know what the latest Biblical scholarship is. -
I will put on my prophecy hat and predict they will not provide any evidence and will only reply with more insults. It seems they think insulting others is a sign of intelligence. Their insults remind me to the playground in the 3rd grade. How sad. Keep up your good work. Everyone needs to know what you are really like.
This is pretty pathetic...They have shown you proof, but you refuse to accept it...And it is YOU who are the typically immature person that cannot hold a mature discussion...If you can't read Hebrew then don't tell others that can that they are wrong...It just shows willful ignorance...
I must have overlooked that post. I will backtrack and try to find it.
>>Stop being so arrogant and telling Jews that you know our language better than we do, it's offensive.<<..
Stop being so arrogant by bearing false witness, accusing me of doing something I have not done. I have NEVER said I know Hebrew better than Jews. I use sources who know the language much better than you do.
Hmmm, I'm a Jew, I read and write Hebrew, I understand what I read with a middle eastern mindset, so tell me again how these Gentile sources of yours know Hebrew better than I?...
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Go to the commandments and meditate on the 9th one.
What does the ninth Mitzvah have to do with anything?...
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It is Christianity that is chasing people away from G-d....
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Not true. Christianity has a much more positive message than Judaism.
So, why don't you tell me what the positive message of Christianity is and what the negative message of Judaism is, if you think you know?...
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I went back and found your post about "im" not always being plural. I must have been in a hurry that day.
So today has not been a total loss, I learned something important. Thank you.
So, what did you learn?...
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However "us" and "our" in Genensis 1:26 requires it to be plural there.
G-d was speaking to His Angels...
Genesis 1:
26And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."
Rashi:
Let us make man: From here we learn the humility of the Holy One, blessed be He. Since man was created in the likeness of the angels, and they would envy him, He consulted them. And when He judges kings, He consults with His Heavenly household, for so we find regarding Ahab, that Micah said to him, (I Kings 22:19): “I saw the Lord seated on His throne, and all the host of heaven were standing by Him, on His right and on His left.” Now do “left” or “right” apply to Him ?! But rather, [the passage means that] these [angels] were standing on the right to defend, and these [angels] were standing on the left to prosecute. Likewise, (Dan. 4:14): “By the decree of the destructive angels is the matter, and by the word of the holy ones is the edict.” Here too, He took counsel with His heavenly household. He said to them, “Among the heavenly beings, there are some in My likeness. If there are none in My likeness among the earthly beings, there will be envy among the creatures of the Creation. ” - [from Tanchuma, Shemoth 18; Gen. Rabbah 8:11, 14:13]
Let us make man: Even though they [the angels] did not assist Him in His creation, and there is an opportunity for the heretics to rebel (to misconstrue the plural as a basis for their heresies), Scripture did not hesitate to teach proper conduct and the trait of humility, that a great person should consult with and receive permission from a smaller one. Had it been written: “I shall make man,” we would not have learned that He was speaking with His tribunal, but to Himself. And the refutation to the heretics is written alongside it [i. e., in the following verse:]“And God created (וַיִּבְרָא) ,” and it does not say,“and they created וַיִּבְרְאוּ.” - [from Gen. Rabbah 8:9]
in our image: in our form.
after our likeness: to understand and to discern.
and they shall rule over the fish: Heb. וְיִרְדּוּ This expression contains both the meaning of ruling and the meaning of subservience. If he merits, he rules over the beasts and over the cattle. If he does not merit, he becomes subservient to them, and the beast rules over him. — [from Gen. Rabbah 8:12]
27And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Notice verse 27, it was a single person that created Adam, the verb created is in the singular in Hebrew so there is not mistaking Elohim for a trinity or that anyone else was involved in creation...Just Him...
English is my native language , but I am certainly not an expert in it. It taks years of study be be an expert in any language.
No it doesn't...Who ever gave you that idea?...I speak, read and write the following languages: German, Spanish, Italian, Irish, Hebrew, Polish, working on Yiddish...Takes me a few months to become fluent...
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It doesn't matter. Angles are created beings.
Angles?...
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Not so. Some things were created on the following days. The great sea monsters and birds were created on the 5th day. Man was created on the 6th day. Even tho the word "created" is not used for what came into being on the other days, if they were not in exdistence until God brought them into existence, He created them.
Nope, sorry, this is what understanding Hebrew would help you understand, that we Jews know our religion,and our bible, better than you do...The word for created in Hebrew that is used on the first day is different than the word created used on the successive days becaue it implies that G-d created everything on the first day and "created" a place or "placed" all that He had created on the first day In their proper places...
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Elohim---YHWH(Jehovah)---Adonai
No, that would be Yehowah, not Jehovah...There are no "Js" in the Hebrew language and the "yod" was not pronounced as a "v" until relatively recently, it was called "was" as opposed to today "vav"...Elohim mean "powers that be"...
Nope, G-d said to Moses, "See!, I have made you a G-d [Elohim] unto Pharoah...
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