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Is this the new sign of truth, Rbbi? Do we accept whatever the Islamist suicide bombers tell us about Allah because they died for what they believed???
Whatever the murderers tell you about their god allah, who has nothing in Christ, is a lie, about a lie. Jesus died for what he knew..."Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness." (John) 3:11 KJV...all the rest can only believe it or they will not.
These stories always sound impressive when related, but the problem is that we have no way of verifying the details. So sorry - we cannot accept personal miracles or answered prayers claims as evidence of anything.
Yep - I know. Checking the old grey matter and going on faith doesn't come easy to all, but once you do it and keep on at it, it comes real easy.
Hmmm...like the story you heard when you were a wee lad that you live on a big blue marble.
You also have no way of verifying the details for it. Models, images, and theoretical equations cannot be accepted as evidence of anything because these things are merely depictions of a suggestion...the idea of which you will never verify with your own eyes, which you have been told are deceiving you. All you have been able to do is live by what you have heard.
Any depiction of any person, place, or thing, is not the reality...it never was, it never will be.
Difficult for people to accept that they are sharing a delusion...one that has no boundaries.
Lying is a sin and lying about G-d or what He has done, would never be considered by anyone with integrity who has the fear of the Lord formed in them. It just wouldn't. So lumping all in the same cart, is pretty biased on your part, don't you think? Particularly when it includes accusing one of the disciples of Christ, WHO WERE TORTURED AND DIED FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVED. Peace
...and where is the verifiable evidence that they even existed much less that they died as martyrs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1
Big difference in the motive of the heart of someone who commits suicide to murder others for their god, and the disciples of Christ who WERE murdered by others for refusing to renounce Christ as the Messiah of Israel, wouldn't you say?
I would say there is a huge difference between REAL people that kill themselves for their beliefs and characters in a book which has been shown to be not much more than fable, fiction and fraud.
...and where is the verifiable evidence that they even existed much less that they died as martyrs?
I would say there is a huge difference between REAL people that kill themselves for their beliefs and characters in a book which has been shown to be not much more than fable, fiction and fraud.
Oh, puh-lease....I'm quite sure you're aware there are extra-biblical sources from ancient works that tell what happened to each of them. What you trying to do, play dumb to cast doubt to the readers to further your own biased agenda? Don't insult your own intelligence. Peace
I'm glad you take that view. However, there are those out there who do so, regularly. I won't say Knowingly, because Faith is so uppermost in their thinking I truly believe hey can't tell the difference between what is false and what is true - only what supports the faith and what doesn't.
So, you can see why I can't rule that possibility out, though I am pleased to accept your assurance that you will never lie for your faith, not only because it saves me a lot of work, but if I ever catch you doing it- you're toast.
Why should it be any different from criminal or scientific or historical investigations? So far, any miracle claims that can be investigated have collapsed remarkably quickly.
So let's say I lined up all the witnesses and let's say they all confirmed your story. What would we be left with? A remarkable coincidence claimed by you as an answer to a prayer. Only one way to validate that - do it again.
In fact there's a way you can prove answered prayers by this time next week. Very simple and well within the abilities of God, wihout even having to distract himself for a second from finding lost car keys or sending busloads of schoolkids into ravines...
And you wouldn't even be able to say it wasn't needful. While I can't claim to be up there in influence with Paul, a Christian Converted Transponder would be worth a second of His Divine time.
As I said to Cardinals recently (and got back Thunderous Silence as there is every time I make this offer) are you Up For It?
See there? Just as I suspected. The line in the sand moved again already. You gonna pay for the second house, cause I'm not....lol. Peace
Oh, puh-lease....I'm quite sure you're aware there are extra-biblical sources from ancient works that tell what happened to each of them. What you trying to do, play dumb to cast doubt to the readers to further your own biased agenda? Don't insult your own intelligence. Peace
Produce these 'extra-biblical sources from ancient works'.
Hmmm...like the story you heard when you were a wee lad that you live on a big blue marble.
You also have no way of verifying the details for it. Models, images, and theoretical equations cannot be accepted as evidence of anything because these things are merely depictions of a suggestion...the idea of which you will never verify with your own eyes, which you have been told are deceiving you. All you have been able to do is live by what you have heard.
Any depiction of any person, place, or thing, is not the reality...it never was, it never will be.
Difficult for people to accept that they are sharing a delusion...one that has no boundaries.
Wow, you just described religion to a tee.
Nice going. I love it when a believer inadvertantly scores a point for the opposing team.
Produce these 'extra-biblical sources from ancient works'.
Well, since you're so interested in their deaths and open to study without any preconceived bias, why don't YOU take the time to look them up? Peace
Start with this comment naming authors....
A book written by C. Bernard Ruffin entitled 'The Twelve' lists sources of early records of the apostles. He listed the following sources. He said other writers from the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries give us more information that the apostles did exist. One of these was written by Papias (A.D. 60-135). He was the bishop of Hierapolis, in what is now Turkey. He was a disciple of John. St. Clement of Rome (d. 101) was a disciple of Peter and Paul and served as pope between A.D. 91-101. Another writer was Iranaeus (A.D. 120-202) the bishop of Lyon (in what is now France). Other reliable writings belong to Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 153-217). He was an eminent Greek theologian and hymnist. Others were Hippolytus (A.D. 170-236), an author of a number of theological works; Tertullian (A.D. 145-221, a Latin-speaking African theologian, Origen (A.D. 185-254), an Egyptian teacher and theologian and St. Jerome (342-420), an Italian scholar and translator. These writings include bits and pieces about the apostles and are what many of our churches have used, along with the Bible, as a basis for their individual histories.
Another source about Eusebius and the Early Church quoted the writings of Clement in the document 'Outlines Box VI.' He writes about Peter, James, and John. He states that James the Righteous was chosen as Bishop of Jerusalem. Few other writers refer to this, but church history still includes them.
Other evidence for Peter’s martyrdom can be found in early church fathers such as Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Dionysius of Corinth, Irenaeus, Tertullian and more. The early, consistent and unanimous testimony is that Peter died as a martyr.
Oh, puh-lease....I'm quite sure you're aware there are extra-biblical sources from ancient works that tell what happened to each of them. What you trying to do, play dumb to cast doubt to the readers to further your own biased agenda? Don't insult your own intelligence. Peace
I have looked ino this a bit and, while I'm willing to be proven wrong (now would be a good time) all the Evidence that the apostles died for their faith comes from Acst, written by Luke, and I wouldn't trust either writing further than I could throw it, and various Christians tracts written for polemic purposes.
The only source I am inclined to give much credit too is the account of the death of James (brother of Jesus, not son of Zebedee as in Acts)in Josephus. That was in fact one of the reasons I was sure here was a real Jesus at all, but then I began o wonder whether it was the same James at all, but after a discussion with Pneuma here, I was a bit more inclined to credit this as being the brother of Jesus. Though it does tend to look like a power sruggle killing rather than dying for his Faith.
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You gonna pay for the second house, cause I'm not....lol. Peace
