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Isn't it also likely that if you asked 400 atheists who had converted to a belief in a "higher power" if they regretted it, 399 or maybe even 400 of them would say no? What it tells me it's not a choice, either way. We believe what makes sense to us at the time, and no one regrets believing what they think is truth.
Now, whether or not to "worship" whatever god (or no-god) one believes is the truth of our reality, that's a choice. If I still believed that God was what the Christians who believe in hell proclaim, I'd have to make a choice: Do I align myself with that god (worship it) so that I can avoid hell, or do I stand on the side of what I believe is good, and say, "No, I can't worship such a god." That would be an incredibly difficult and fearful choice to make, and I agree that people who believe that they will suffer for eternity for not worshipping a threatening god really don't have much of choice.
However, while I'm incredibly grateful to have been freed from my early and prolonged indoctrination into a belief in a bipolar and confusing omni-being (who IS love but is eternally wrathful ), I do not regret the time that I spent in that religion, or my experience of worshipping it. Because while worshipping the wrathful entity was detrimental, at some point, worshipping* the God who is love won out in my life and that has been nothing but beneficial.
(*My idea of "worship" is not about religious rites, but has to do with aligning myself with what I believe is good. Even when I was still a Christian, that is how I had come to see worship.)
I mean its that simple.
List only all the bad things I have done and I am bad.
List only all the good I have done and I am good. lets not count the actual items please.
The simple fact is that the universe is doing the earth.
Oh, I probably would.
Note, however, I said "probably."
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Probably I would if it was made that easy. But I wouldn't buy one and travel there in great hopes.
Well if you guys ever want to get a C-D geological expedition together, I'm in! What do we have to lose and we'll get some fresh air and exercise. We could also search for artifacts of the Nephites and Lamanites, two ancient civilizations that lived and supposedly battled with one another right in the same area...
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Perhaps you singled out Me because I am so persistent a poster and Shirina because she is less prolific but far more powerful.
It's costly for a military to keep the "Big Guns" armed and ready all the time, you only bring them out when necessary...
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Didn't the original translation get stolen to see whether he could translate it accurately again, and he had to claim that something - the plates, or the meanings - had changed in the meantime?
Yes, I believe Joseph Smith, quite dismayed, said he had to go off and "pray" for guidance in what to do in lieu of the lost original translation.
Isn't it also likely that if you asked 400 atheists who had converted to a belief in a "higher power" if they regretted it, 399 or maybe even 400 of them would say no? What it tells me it's not a choice, either way. We believe what makes sense to us at the time, and no one regrets believing what they think is truth.
You know what? I doubt it. Because the primary reason why atheists end up Christians is because they used to be Christians before they were atheists - and they are scared to death of going to Hell. Many atheists still profess a profound fear of Hell even years after becoming an atheist. Even though they know, rationally, that Hell is a primitive, irrational belief, they've been so heavily brainwashed that they can't get it out of their minds.
Thing of it is - atheism does not proselytize, it's barely organized, and has no real access to radio or television and has to rely solely on the internet to even be noticed. And one thing that is often said by atheists who have deconverted from atheism is that they are actually free of the brainwashing they had to endure growing up.
That is a major difference between atheism and most religions. Now, people can choose which way to go with their religious belief, but like I said - organizing religion has stripped away the "spiritual" aspect of religion and left just the dogma. The positive aspects of religion are basically ignored by all practicing Christians save a relatively small percentage in favor of the hellfire and brimstone "judge thy neighbor" type of religion that divides humanity and makes it a danger to every free-thinking individual in the country regardless of what religion they believe.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
Now, whether or not to "worship" whatever god (or no-god) one believes is the truth of our reality, that's a choice. If I still believed that God was what the Christians who believe in hell proclaim, I'd have to make a choice: Do I align myself with that god (worship it) so that I can avoid hell, or do I stand on the side of what I believe is good, and say, "No, I can't worship such a god." That would be an incredibly difficult and fearful choice to make, and I agree that people who believe that they will suffer for eternity for not worshipping a threatening god really don't have much of choice.
Yes, exactly. Even if 399 former atheists said they are happy they converted - or re-converted - there is no way to know if that is because they're glad they don't have to be afraid of Hell anymore or if they're just truly happier in a general way.
Like I said earlier, many of those atheists who go running back to Christianity don't necessarily do it because they believe in all the nonsense - but they've been abused by parents and clergy to believe that the monster under the bed, the boogyman in the closet, are real. And if you don't bow down and give over your life to the being *and* the dogma, you'll burn forever. As such, the programming they've endured gets in the way. It's like someone who served a long prison term and once freed can no longer function within society. Is prison truly a better place to be? Everyone *not* in prison would say absolutely not or people would be lining up to be arrested.
Is it right or fair to force a former prisoner to exist within society if they cannot? No, of course it isn't. But just because someone is happier in prison doesn't mean prison is a great place to be. It's the same with religion.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
However, while I'm incredibly grateful to have been freed from my early and prolonged indoctrination into a belief in a bipolar and confusing omni-being (who IS love but is eternally wrathful ), I do not regret the time that I spent in that religion, or my experience of worshipping it. Because while worshipping the wrathful entity was detrimental, at some point, worshipping* the God who is love won out in my life and that has been nothing but beneficial.
The "god who is love" may have won out in your life - but the "god who is love" doesn't exist. That god does not exist both as a loving god and as a god at all. This is where the cognitive dissonance comes into play. I don't know what religion you were in the past - but insofar as Christianity is concerned, a good and loving god cannot also be a genocidal killer.
And, in truth, the only god portrayed in that religion *is* a genocidal killer - and Jesus isn't any better since he still endorsed immoral acts such as slavery and introduced Hell to the Christian religion. Of course Dante's Inforno added even more. Despite all the "lovey-dovey" things Jesus may have said here and there, the bottom line is that you were required to join his cult or burn forever. I cannot think of anything as immoral as that.
But the fundevangelist crowd essentially wanted a nice, kind, compassionate, loving, and forgiving god for themselves - but a wrathful, genocidal, murderous, hate-mongering divine bigot for everyone else.
Just like you illustrated in how difficult it would be to make that choice - do I leave the religion and risk Hell or do I stay and pretend to still believe - it's a hard choice to make. However, those who feel this way should realize that even if God should exist you cannot pretend to believe. Pascal's Wager is an utter failure in logic - and this is one of the reasons. If you've lost your belief, you're going to Hell anyway, so may as well just come out as an atheist. The choice has been made for you - because we don't choose what to believe. We're either convinced - or we're not.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
(*My idea of "worship" is not about religious rites, but has to do with aligning myself with what I believe is good. Even when I was still a Christian, that is how I had come to see worship.)
The only thing I have to say in response to this is to ask the question, what made you think you needed a religion and a god to align yourself with morality, love, and what is good? Because quite a lot of what some Christians believe in is not good. At all.
As I've pointed out numerous times - look at the Bible Belt, the bastion of Christianity in our country. And yet their public policies have been fascistic and evil at their core - especially in regards to the Tea Party and the dozen or so official Christian hate groups that often originate from this bastion. Where exactly IS the love, the understanding, the tolerance, the compassion, the charity, the generosity? It can all be summed up in a comment made by Ted Haggard: "As Christians, we have the right to treat other people differently." Which, translated for those of us in the real world, says, "I have the right to be a bigot and oppress anyone who disagrees with our religion."
This dichotomy is one of the major things that drove me away from religion in the first place - as if the fundevangelists always had to stir the pot.
Perhaps things are different wherever you live - but to my eyes, Christianity isn't even attractive to those who are sincere about morality, goodness, altruism, and the like. Because if someone tells me they're a Christian south of the Mason-Dixon, I immediately go on alert. Because the beliefs down there for so many are only Christian if they can enforce some horrible ISIS-like rule against the population at large. The rest of the time, their beliefs border on evil - and sometimes cross the line.
Well if you guys ever want to get a C-D geological expedition together, I'm in! What do we have to lose and we'll get some fresh air and exercise. We could also search for artifacts of the Nephites and Lamanites, two ancient civilizations that lived and supposedly battled with one another right in the same area...
Oh yeah, it would be fun to do, no doubt - but I obviously wouldn't expect to find anything.
I know some people believe we shouldn't dignify a hoax, and that's true for a lot of hoaxes. But this isn't a random UFO hoax or YouTube ghost video.
Moderator cut: Don't call out a specific religion as a hoax, per forum rules.
How anyone can believe that a brand new holy book was created by a former con-man with gold plates that he translated while having his face shoved in a hat. I mean, really? Did anyone ever ask how he managed to get all of the gold plates into one hat? And if not, where did he keep the ones he already translated? And the ones yet to be done? There would have to be hundreds of those plates to have en entire book engraved upon them.
And there was an issue where he had to rewrite either the whole book or a substantial part of it because he got caught red-handed faking the translation. I can't quite remember why - he may have been asked to recite something and he couldn't or something like that. Whatever the case, that should have been the end of this stupid little scam right there and then. But it just goes to show you that people were gullible even then.
Moderator cut: off-topic
Moderator cut: Origins of and beliefs within a religion can be questioned without calling it a hoax.
I mean come on .... what did he say the language was he was translating? Oh right. He called it "Reformed Egyptian," I think. Except there is NO such thing as "Reformed Egyptian" anywhere outside of the Mormon faith. You'd think that alone would give people a clue. Never mind the magic underwear or Jesus, Brigham, and John hanging out together on the planet Kolob wasn't enough.
Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 03-25-2019 at 09:04 AM..
Reason: As noted
The "god who is love" may have won out in your life - but the "god who is love" doesn't exist. That god does not exist both as a loving god and as a god at all. This is where the cognitive dissonance comes into play.
<snip>Take care.
Your criticisms of the irrational in the organized religions are spot on, as usual. The LDS and Scientology origins are particularly mindboggling, as are the SDA. But this goes a bridge too far, Shirina. You do not know the assertion in bold, cannot know this, and should not pretend that you do just because of all the existing religious absurdities about God.
List only all the bad things I have done and I am bad.
List only all the good I have done and I am good. lets not count the actual items please.
The simple fact is that the universe is doing the earth.
there is no logical way around that.
It has gotten much simpler for me in the past decade.
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Originally Posted by Shirina
You know what? I doubt it. Because the primary reason why atheists end up Christians is because they used to be Christians before they were atheists - and they are scared to death of going to Hell. Many atheists still profess a profound fear of Hell even years after becoming an atheist. Even though they know, rationally, that Hell is a primitive, irrational belief, they've been so heavily brainwashed that they can't get it out of their minds.
You perhaps noticed that I referenced coming to believe in a "higher power", as opposed to certain types of Christianity or any other religions that preach hell and damnation. If people do return to the same hell-bound beliefs they had left behind, I wouldn't be surprised that, whether they admit it to themselves or not, they harbor some regret or, more likely, fear. But I'd venture to guess they were never really free from the belief in hell to begin with, if that were the case.
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Thing of it is - atheism does not proselytize, it's barely organized, and has no real access to radio or television and has to rely solely on the internet to even be noticed. And one thing that is often said by atheists who have deconverted from atheism is that they are actually free of the brainwashing they had to endure growing up.
That is a major difference between atheism and most religions. Now, people can choose which way to go with their religious belief, but like I said - organizing religion has stripped away the "spiritual" aspect of religion and left just the dogma. The positive aspects of religion are basically ignored by all practicing Christians save a relatively small percentage in favor of the hellfire and brimstone "judge thy neighbor" type of religion that divides humanity and makes it a danger to every free-thinking individual in the country regardless of what religion they believe.
I'm certainly not one to argue about the potential for religion to be harmful, although I think once the carrot on a stick and/or fear of punishment aspects are removed the benefits begin to outweigh the harm. And, as I was trying to tell you in my previous post, it is possible for those negative aspects to lessen their influence on a person even when they are still within the religion, if they are focused on the more positive aspects of it instead. That was my experience, at any rate.
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Yes, exactly. Even if 399 former atheists said they are happy they converted - or re-converted - there is no way to know if that is because they're glad they don't have to be afraid of Hell anymore or if they're just truly happier in a general way.
Like I said earlier, many of those atheists who go running back to Christianity don't necessarily do it because they believe in all the nonsense - but they've been abused by parents and clergy to believe that the monster under the bed, the boogyman in the closet, are real. And if you don't bow down and give over your life to the being *and* the dogma, you'll burn forever. As such, the programming they've endured gets in the way. It's like someone who served a long prison term and once freed can no longer function within society. Is prison truly a better place to be? Everyone *not* in prison would say absolutely not or people would be lining up to be arrested.
Is it right or fair to force a former prisoner to exist within society if they cannot? No, of course it isn't. But just because someone is happier in prison doesn't mean prison is a great place to be. It's the same with religion.
You're still assuming that just because a person believes in God, they automatically believe in hell. That is certainly not the case. As I said, I was raised to believe in hell. I don't anymore, and didn't even in the years before I left Christianity. I had no compelling fear of hell to turn me back to a belief in God. And yet, here I am, believing in God and having no regret about it.
Quote:
The "god who is love" may have won out in your life - but the "god who is love" doesn't exist. That god does not exist both as a loving god and as a god at all. This is where the cognitive dissonance comes into play. I don't know what religion you were in the past - but insofar as Christianity is concerned, a good and loving god cannot also be a genocidal killer.
And, in truth, the only god portrayed in that religion *is* a genocidal killer - and Jesus isn't any better since he still endorsed immoral acts such as slavery and introduced Hell to the Christian religion. Of course Dante's Inforno added even more. Despite all the "lovey-dovey" things Jesus may have said here and there, the bottom line is that you were required to join his cult or burn forever. I cannot think of anything as immoral as that.
But the fundevangelist crowd essentially wanted a nice, kind, compassionate, loving, and forgiving god for themselves - but a wrathful, genocidal, murderous, hate-mongering divine bigot for everyone else.
Just like you illustrated in how difficult it would be to make that choice - do I leave the religion and risk Hell or do I stay and pretend to still believe - it's a hard choice to make. However, those who feel this way should realize that even if God should exist you cannot pretend to believe. Pascal's Wager is an utter failure in logic - and this is one of the reasons. If you've lost your belief, you're going to Hell anyway, so may as well just come out as an atheist. The choice has been made for you - because we don't choose what to believe. We're either convinced - or we're not.
Yes, that's what I said. We believe what makes sense to us at the time.
Quote:
The only thing I have to say in response to this is to ask the question, what made you think you needed a religion and a god to align yourself with morality, love, and what is good? Because quite a lot of what some Christians believe in is not good. At all.
I don't think I posted anything which implied that I ever thought I needed a religion or a god. After leaving Christianity, I never once thought that. I simply am convinced that a God who is love exists.
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As I've pointed out numerous times - look at the Bible Belt, the bastion of Christianity in our country. And yet their public policies have been fascistic and evil at their core - especially in regards to the Tea Party and the dozen or so official Christian hate groups that often originate from this bastion. Where exactly IS the love, the understanding, the tolerance, the compassion, the charity, the generosity? It can all be summed up in a comment made by Ted Haggard: "As Christians, we have the right to treat other people differently." Which, translated for those of us in the real world, says, "I have the right to be a bigot and oppress anyone who disagrees with our religion."
This dichotomy is one of the major things that drove me away from religion in the first place - as if the fundevangelists always had to stir the pot.
Perhaps things are different wherever you live - but to my eyes, Christianity isn't even attractive to those who are sincere about morality, goodness, altruism, and the like. Because if someone tells me they're a Christian south of the Mason-Dixon, I immediately go on alert. Because the beliefs down there for so many are only Christian if they can enforce some horrible ISIS-like rule against the population at large. The rest of the time, their beliefs border on evil - and sometimes cross the line.
Take care.
I don't know if you have any interest in talking about a belief in God, or lack thereof, without reverting back to a discussion of evangelical Christianity, and it's fine if you don't, but just so you understand, the point of view from which I am approaching things is different from that. So, when you talk about the problems with ev. Christianity in response to my posts, you're preaching to the choir.
Shirina, would I be correct in assuming that you, as you deal with your day to day life and the people in it, look inwardly for love, compassion, strength, etc. ? I do, too. I believe that is where the God who is love can be found, in each of us. It doesn't bother me that you don't call that God. I only hope that each person comes to know and trust that it is there and that they don't somehow think they got the short end of the materialist stick and aren't capable of finding those things within themselves.
Your criticisms of the irrational in the organized religions are spot on, as usual. The LDS and Scientology origins are particularly mindboggling, as are the SDA. But this goes a bridge too far, Shirina. You do not know the assertion in bold, cannot know this, and should not pretend that you do just because of all the existing religious absurdities about God.
I get where you're coming from. But... I can't know that the God who is love exists, either. But I'm asserting that it does, because that is what I believe is true. If someone is convinced it's not, then of course they're not obliged to agree with me.
I get where you're coming from. But... I can't know that the God who is love exists, either. But I'm asserting that it does because that is what I believe is true. If someone is convinced it's not, then, of course, they're not obliged to agree with me.
I agree, Pleroo, but I can KNOW because I have personally experienced it many times and I am never without a constant reminder of it.
I guess for me, addressing personalty types and mob mentality lines up better when talking about people. atheism and theism are NOT the best base to apply the scientific method.
I turned away from hard core anti-religion when trans tried to tell me that 'although valid why talk about it? theist can use and make atheism harder to sell.". that is a less valid base axiom. then they tried to tell me "It doesn't mean anything to our lives anyway. And religion is so dangerous. just don't talk about that science.". I then ofered a counter claim that "people are surrounded by the biosphere, maybe they are reacting to that.". trans answers with Due to my atheism I must answer its just nature. That's when I realized there are the exact same type of people in atheism as in theism.
I think any religion that bases its roots on "died and rose for our sins" is very silly. I think people that form up under that claim to go out and hurt people should be stopped. by force if necessary.
Notice, the claim is not based on "theist" or "atheism". its based on what people are doing.
I agree, Pleroo, but I can KNOW because I have personally experienced it many times and I am never without a constant reminder of it.
I believe that I, too, have and do experience God, even though not in the dramatic way that you have. However, there's no way around the fact that it's a subjective experience. I think I fit the definition of agnosticism:
a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality is unknown and probably unknowable .
Only I'd say that I'm more in the "possibly" unknowable camp, than "probably". It may become knowable at some point, or maybe it won't because it would ruin all the fun.
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), I do not regret the time that I spent in that religion, or my experience of worshipping it. Because while worshipping the wrathful entity was detrimental, at some point, worshipping* the God who is love won out in my life and that has been nothing but beneficial.
