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Old 01-22-2018, 06:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
So my main question is,as bad as Native American removal and African enslavement were how do we sort out the bad things that were in some Native American and African cultures that the coming of Columbus either stopped or saved people from?

Human sacrifice in some African cultures and the Trokosi practice:

WHEN AN OBA OF BENIN KINGDOM PASSES TO THE GREAT BEYOND

Liberating girls from 'trokosi': campaign against ritual servitude in Ghana
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Might we expand our cultural speculations?

Would the Catholic church still be burning heretics if there had been no Protestant reformation?

Would the western world still be attending gladiator shows if the Roman empire had not fallen?
I'm going to take a stab at this, and maybe on a new thread. I believe that the envelopment of the Western world by monotheistic faiths started the movement away from such barbarous practices as human sacrifice. It was not an overnight process by any means.

All of the major monotheistic faiths, those being Judaism and Christianity (Islam is a different story which I will detour on briefly) had early experience with either human sacrifice or jubilating divine deaths.
  • Judaism - The lack of sadness at the deaths of Nadav and Abijuh for bringing "strange fire" into the Tent of Meeting and the death of Korach and his compatriots;
  • Catholics - The burning of heretics in Spain by the auto d'afe (literally, act of faith) and the Inquisition;
  • Protestants - The Salem Witch Trials.
All of these were carryovers from earlier traditions of barbarity. Slowly all of these religions developed scholarly and quietistic traditions of non-violence. They were never perfect, not to this day, but there is progress.

The primitive cultures were different. Far from the Edenic ideal, the excellent book War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage by Lawrence H. Keeley sets the stage for how things were in pre-Columbian America. There is little to suggest that without the spread of Judeo-Christian practices anything would have changed. The book The Vikings: A History by Robert Ferguson teaches that there was little evolution of the Vikings as a people before their Christianization. The Scandinavian countries of Iceland, Norway and, until the recent immigrant invasion Sweden and Denmark are now among the more genteel parts of the world. The invaded areas of Russia down to the Caspian Sea, England, Ireland and the northwestern part of the European continent would have begged to differ during the Viking era.

Spiritually G-d started telling the Jews, with the story of the Binding of Isaac, that while neighboring cultures may have practiced child or human sacrifice,that was forbidden to the Jews. Christianity evolved in a like manner. There is no evidence that the idolatrous Native Americans, the pre-Christian Vikings or tribal Europe were ever going to evolve. It might have happened, but never, to my knowledge, did.

Islam is a different story. While styled as a monotheistic religion there are disturbing signs that it is really more the ancient tribal customs overlayed with a thin veneer of monotheism, imitating the Jews and Christians of the area and era. In all but name, Mohamed and the Koran are worshiped. If not, why are there riots when cartoons are published with a bomb coming out of Mohamed's head? Or Korans desecrated? There are no such riots for this display, when Andres Serrano's controversial **** Christ goes on view in New York. While conservatives verbally assault the public funding of these "artistic" displays, life goes on. I would argue that monotheism is at an evolutionary stage in Islam.

Circling back to the subject, I believe that Mayans would still be throwing their sacrificial targets down cenotes (water holes) if not for the influence of monotheistic religions.

Last edited by jbgusa; 01-22-2018 at 06:40 PM..
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Old 01-22-2018, 06:51 PM
 
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lead by a group most of the time with one taking the reins every now and again?

yeah, it makes sense. We see it all over nature.
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Old 01-22-2018, 08:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
lead by a group most of the time with one taking the reins every now and again?

yeah, it makes sense. We see it all over nature.
I don't understand. And link for above painting of Christ soaked in urine (link) and not causing riots fixed.

Last edited by jbgusa; 01-22-2018 at 08:35 PM..
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Old 01-22-2018, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Slowly all of these religions developed scholarly and quietistic traditions of non-violence.
On what planet?

Your analysis is all wrong.

Monotheism actually spurred Judaism into a genocidal frenzy. It ended only because the Kingdom of Judah was destroyed and its inhabitants scattered during the diaspora. The resurrection of Judaism under the State of Israel has only led to more violence and strife.

Christianity spent its first 1,800 years slaughtering millions of pagans who refused to convert, then slaughtering millions of "heretics" like the Manicheans, Albigensians, Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, the Bogomils and many others, then slaughtering millions of Protestants. It wasn't until the Papacy was defeated by Napoleon, and then later by Garibaldi, that the slaughter was reduced.

Islam engaged in slaughter for its first 900 years until the Treaty of Karlowitz in 1699 stopped the expansion of the Ottoman Empire.

It's only been since the creation of Collective Security Organizations -- the League of Nations, United Nations, NATO, SEATO and the Warsaw Pact -- that have led to some semblance of peace and non-violence.
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Old 01-26-2018, 07:23 PM
 
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Then they went and bombed Kosovo. yep. Collective Security indeed.

Though Echnaton was the first to enforce monotheism.

Anyway, there is about 3200 years Biblical Project. What you describe, Mircea, is part of it.
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Old 01-27-2018, 06:11 AM
 
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No way!

Religion is a REFLECTION of culture. The ancient tribal gods reflected the culture of that time. Monotheism reflects the coming together of various cultures into larger society. "God" becomes more and more universal over time, as society is doing the same. "God" is a person's guiding voice.
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Old 01-27-2018, 06:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
No way!

Religion is a REFLECTION of culture. The ancient tribal gods reflected the culture of that time. Monotheism reflects the coming together of various cultures into larger society. "God" becomes more and more universal over time, as society is doing the same. "God" is a person's guiding voice.
With the exception of much (not all) of Islam that is the case. Some Muslims badly want Islam to be a "normal" religion. For most of the Islamic world Islam is a method of subjugating women, abusing children and excusing sickening violence.
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Old 01-27-2018, 09:07 AM
 
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It's so easy for people sitting on a couch with a laptop to criticize "silly" religious people. But how many armchair critics have ever done the kind of manual labor that is required to allow them to have a comfortable life.

It seems like the most religious fundamentalist people are the only ones doing any actual work in the world.
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Old 01-27-2018, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
15,143 posts, read 7,035,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
It's so easy for people sitting on a couch with a laptop to criticize "silly" religious people. But how many armchair critics have ever done the kind of manual labor that is required to allow them to have a comfortable life.

It seems like the most religious fundamentalist people are the only ones doing any actual work in the world.
You need to explain that post in far more detail. Otherwise I'll have to label it as pathetic.

Last edited by phetaroi; 01-27-2018 at 10:08 AM..
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Old 01-27-2018, 10:06 AM
 
30,735 posts, read 6,554,554 times
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I'm inclined to agree. I'm not sure whether that's true or if so what it means (it could mean than those who dig rather than think are more likely to buy into fool faith -claims) or whether Work is in terms of religious effort, in which case I agree that atheism/Humanism needs to do more. If religion goes, we would do well to have something better to put in its' place than instinct - driven power -manipulation.

I believe it is critical thinking and logic and humanist ethics in education where there used be training in the particular religion. We are a species with reasoning powers, but little reasoning ability. Because we are not taught how.

That said, I am not going to overlook or dismiss what has been achieved, perhaps by religion or perhaps by humans with religion taking the credit. That doesn't matter. We are past using the achievements and progress of humanity to boost the authority of religions - or we ought to be.
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