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Ah, Arq, despite your relative ignorance of science and the philosophy of science, virtually all your posts to me about my views can be summarized as follows: You accuse me of not knowing the science, not knowing the rational use of logic, not properly using analogies, not understanding the mathematics of physics or cosmology, not understanding the biology of life, not knowing the basis of consciousness in the brain, and to top it off you presume to be able to evaluate when I have been "sussed, debunked, and refuted" by others. What seems to stick in your craw is that despite my extensive knowledge I have been convinced by experience that God exists and have developed an explanation the fits within existing science and my extrapolations from the frontiers of science that are only now being realized. You call it my Faith-based denial of your concrete materialist reality.
Seems your "explanation that fits within existing science" has been shared and considered by others here, but if it is possible to get past all this other nonsense, I'm a little curious what this explanation might be. Without all the mightier than thou rhetoric would be a special treat...
I signed off from this thread yesterday by simply commenting about how people approach the exchange of opinion in all variety of different ways. Not sure how any of that was "self-congratulatory," but what followed are many a comment proving my point, including how such exchange can go south not only in person but also in a forum like this one. Logic and reason takes a back seat to ego and hubris in what seems a contest of "winning" the quien es mas con KNOWLEDGE game...
That happens, but it doesn't matter. The point is to look at the two sides trying to 'Win' and seeing which one makes the best case. it's really all done for the peanut people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Seems your "explanation that fits within existing science" has been shared and considered by others here, but if it is possible to get past all this other nonsense, I'm a little curious what this explanation might be. Without all the mightier than thou rhetoric would be a special treat...
I should love to see another poster (of a whole string of them) engaging with Mystic to discuss his hypothesis.
That happens, but it doesn't matter. The point is to look at the two sides trying to 'Win' and seeing which one makes the best case. it's really all done for the peanut people.
I should love to see another poster (of a whole string of them) engaging with Mystic to discuss his hypothesis.
I almost forgot this effort of mine of many years ago, but after getting Mystic's take and then revisiting this thread this morning, I was suddenly reminded of my own effort along these lines. To have an "off the shelf" version of my ultimate conclusion as of the present. An effort that over time developed into these "Nine Truths." Took me awhile to find this, but after doing a little searching of old emails going back almost 10 years, here it is perhaps also for the peanut people to consider...
NINE TRUTHS
ONE: There are two essential realities for all human beings. One reality is as they perceive it to be -- their personal reality. The second reality is all that truly exists in the Universe -- universal truth.
TWO: Human beings cannot know all that truly exists. The Universe and all it contains is full of mystery that will forever be marveled and pursued by Man as long as he survives.
THREE: The first "reality" for human beings manifests itself in all the great many beliefs and faiths throughout the World, from Christianity to Islam, from Mormonism to Zionism to Hinduism, and all the many faiths and religions in between. Many books also stem from these beliefs; the Bible, the Koran, the Bhagavad-Gita, Speaking of Faith, The Celestine Prophecy and so on. Beliefs in spiritual men such as Jesus, Mohammad, Joseph Smith and Jim Jones. The list is long and varied.
FOUR: The second reality, all that truly exists, known or unknown, is disclosed to Man most accurately and peacefully by way of well documented history (rather than religious books) and empirical science (rather than theology). All that we can accept as reality, truth, with the most certainty and most reasonably accept as true for ALL concerned.
FIVE: Faith is spawned from the human inclination to speculate or suppose beyond reality and theory as determined and defined by science. Such notions are often described as "spirituality" or a belief in an "energy" or an "influence," a "power" or "force," a God or Gods. These notions that go beyond common human awareness are typically based or recognized more by emotion rather than facts, feelings rather than logic. They typically call for faith rather than proof, all stemming from personal experience rather than common observance or scientific verification.
SIX: Man's ability to theorize is a faculty that allows Man to advance toward greater awareness and understanding of universal truth. The theoretical often guides Man to great scientific discovery. However, when conjecture rather than sound reason and logic leads to faith and the conversion of minds toward the likes of religion rather than the laws and limits of empirical science, great harm can and does come to Man instead. This is because the great majority of people cannot accept the confines of science. Instead conjecture is strongly promoted as truth ultimately to the point of creating profound divisions between people resulting in great conflict, violence and war, still raging since the dark ages; The Crusades, Jews v Muslims, Protestants v Catholics, Shiites v Sunnis...
SEVEN: The alternative skeptical challenge and test of faith to limit such conjecture is to foster an adherence to reality as currently defined or understood by science, the most universally accepted effort to arrive at truth with no agenda other than greater knowledge and understanding of universal truth. This path or quest of scientific discovery offers the way to peace instead of the sure madness that arises from the conflict of differing faiths.
If only Man would humbly, patiently and universally agree to allow. This is not to say that Man will not continue to bring violence upon himself for all number of other reasons, but intolerance, violence and war resulting from conflicting faith would be no more (and that's a whole lot of violence and war). Of course, Man's thoughts and beliefs cannot be controlled, but as Man learns to more universally accept both the great promise and reasonable limits of what science can teach, the source of conflict between Man is diminished, the path toward progress cleared, and the prospect for peace improved.
EIGHT: Empirical science alternatively guides Man toward truth based on facts that all people around the World can most easily accept as true, clearly distinguishing reality from theory in a manner all should peacefully embrace, thus eliminating the call or need for "faith" in any alternatives that ultimately divide us. Science fosters the peace of a universal patience and acceptance of our common condition and experience as humans.
NINE: Truth is therefore best realized and peace most successfully fostered as more people patiently accept and embrace reality as revealed, defined and/or revised by science. The movement toward this patience and acceptance, very slowly growing from one century to the next, is the maturing of Man, his best chance for lasting peace and true understanding of all that exists in the Universe, proven or yet to be proven.
I am prety sure that you don't have the propencity to understand religion, and I seriously believe you could study every day of your life and never understand the bible, it wouldn't make sense to you. You want to apply logic and reason, but most religions don't operate that way. I am certain that you can never understand the bible, but the bible does not come without proof, proof that you will never find.
I am prety sure that you don't have the propencity to understand religion, and I seriously believe you could study every day of your life and never understand the bible, it wouldn't make sense to you. You want to apply logic and reason, but most religions don't operate that way. I am certain that you can never understand the bible, but the bible does not come without proof, proof that you will never find.
Well heavens to betsy. I glad to finally have it acknowledged that christians do not use logic and reason. Thank you for that admission.
Well heavens to betsy. I glad to finally have it acknowledged that christians do not use logic and reason. Thank you for that admission.
Logic and reason would lead a person to seek after security, and to make themselves as wealthy as they can, and this mentality is the thinking of an animal. If somebody strikes you in anger, reason and logic would lead you to strike back and defend yourself. Logic and reason and thinking like an animal would lead you to believe that if you caught somebody stealing from you, that you should call the police, or last beat them down like most men would, and this is logical, protect what you assume is yours, but this isn't the way. You catch somebody stealling 20 bucks off your cabinet, and you forgive them, let them keep the 20, and add another 20.
Ya know why?
Because the truth and life operate on a higher level that most people cannot understand, and when those husbands and wives sold their houses, their businesses, and all they owned, to then become homeless, I am quite sure that you would look down on these people as idiots that lack any common sense or logic.
Because you cannot understand, your mind doesn't work that way, it is the mentality of flesh, the mentality of an animal that Christians are trying to overcome. Myself included, it is a hard thing to not think by flesh and what the eyes can see.
And again, God is not without proof, but the man who only sees flesh, that person will never test God, because what God gives a man as a test, it takes the utmost faith and bravery to accomplish, and this is just not in most people, certainly not within most Christians.
Christians today, they are kings of the Earth, and this is a sad reality, Christians running around teaching prosperity through the works of their own hands, kings they are, but what fool would choose to be a king in this short trivial life when it means they will be servants in the next?
What fool would choose the riches of this world and set out working himself to death, when it would be easier to own the world?
You look at the world as if things are very simple, but others see something else.
Why would God have you sell all you own to give to the needy widows of Israel and the aged of Israel?
Why would a succesful person who owns a house and a business, suddenly sell all he owns to then take his wife out on the streets to live under trees?
Your mentality and logic would laugh at a person for doing exactly that, but what you don't know, is why God wanted them to do it.
A man and a woman have a great business that they own making pottery, and then they believe in Jesus, and then they sell their business, their homes, and all they own to give to the Jewish widows of Israel.
Logic and reason would lead a person to seek after security, and to make themselves as wealthy as they can, and this mentality is the thinking of an animal. If somebody strikes you in anger, reason and logic would lead you to strike back and defend yourself. Logic and reason and thinking like an animal would lead you to believe that if you caught somebody stealing from you, that you should call the police, or last beat them down like most men would, and this is logical, protect what you assume is yours, but this isn't the way. You catch somebody stealling 20 bucks off your cabinet, and you forgive them, let them keep the 20, and add another 20.
Ya know why?
Because the truth and life operate on a higher level that most people cannot understand, and when those husbands and wives sold their houses, their businesses, and all they owned, to then become homeless, I am quite sure that you would look down on these people as idiots that lack any common sense or logic.
Because you cannot understand, your mind doesn't work that way, it is the mentality of flesh, the mentality of an animal that Christians are trying to overcome. Myself included, it is a hard thing to not think by flesh and what the eyes can see.
And again, God is not without proof, but the man who only sees flesh, that person will never test God, because what God gives a man as a test, it takes the utmost faith and bravery to accomplish, and this is just not in most people, certainly not within most Christians.
Christians today, they are kings of the Earth, and this is a sad reality, Christians running around teahing prosperity through the works of their own hands, kings they are, but what fool would choose to be a king in this short trivial life when it means they will be servants in the next?
What fool would choose the riches of this world and set out working himself to death, when it would be easier to own the world?
You look at the world as if things are very simple, but others see something else.
Why would God have you sell all you own to give to the needy widows of Israel and the aged of Israel?
Why would a succesful person who owns a house and a business, suddenly sell all he owns to tnen take his wife out on the streets to live under trees?
Your mentality and logic would laugh at a person for doing exactly that, but what you don't know, is why God wanted them to do it.
A man and a woman have a great business that they own making pottery, and then they believe in Jesus, and then they sell their business, their homes, and all they own to give to the Jewish widows of Israel.
Does that sound reasonable?
Do you find your logic?
The outcome is not what you think.
Frankly, nothing you've ever posted has sounded reasonable to me. And it's why no one was ever on my very short ignore list (never more than 3 posters) longer that you were, or are again. You need to learn the difference between faith and fact.
A Gentile commits himself to God's religion, he begins studying Judaism, and he does so for decades, he owns two businesses, two houses, a boat, and he owns many strips of land.
After years of study, he finally realizes the truth of the matter because he has found promises made by God, and he decides to act upon those promises, and the least that could happen, is that he sells al he owns to give to the Jewish widows, holocaust survivors, and then he halps a couple of Jews to pack uo and move them to Israel helping them all along the way, and when it is done, he has nothing, and is now homeless.
No job, no car, no house, and no friends, worst of all, his family wants to commit him for being irresponsible.
All his former friends and all his family decide to have a meeting, and so they come together and they tell him,'' Why have you have squandered everything like you couldn't see the truth of what you are doing, you have lost everything, and now you are so poor that people are laughing at you.
The guy looks at them and say,'' You are so blind, so deaf, you have no covering, you are naked and wretched and poor, and you think think you are all rich, and through some type of madness, you have all come here to save me, or help me as if I needed your help, it is you who are poor, and naked, and wretched, deaf and blind, and you don't know it.
The man goes on.
You are all deaf and blind and naked in need of a physician, and God requires that you must by some oil that you may see, God requires that you by gold refined in the fire to cover hour nakedness,
What has happened to the man who has sold all he owned to help Israel?
Frankly, nothing you've ever posted has sounded reasonable to me. And it's why no one was ever on my very short ignore list (never more than 3 posters) longer that you were, or are again. You need to learn the difference between faith and fact.
LOL, I should think that you never do understand me, why would you?
Yeah, the list......That is real important to me lol.....
I guess I better step my game up now that I know there is a list.
Are you not understanding?
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