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Freedom,
I like to make what I consider to be witty remarks and I've always enjoyed the ebb and flow of a good debate. I honestly mean no disrespect to anyone and I certainly wasn't taking a shot at you personally when I made my smart remark. Even though we disagree on almost everything I find you to be a likeable person and I realize that you're completely sincere in your beliefs. I also respect your grit and determination when you'll argue against a half dozen people who have opposing views. I honestly think there's room for every point of view in a democratic society and the debating of ideas is why our society is successful. My friend, I wish you good luck and let's continue to debate in a respectful manner.
Agreed, and i fell the same way about you as well.
If there is no such thing as supernatural than we should be able to test for this thing you call "God".
We have the same difficulty testing for God that we have testing for your consciousness (your self). It is an energy form we cannot yet measure (like dark energy). All we can test are its effects. When we test God's effects they are called natural laws or natural processes. When we test our effects they are called human motives and decisions.
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Unless you are referring to "God" in the same sense that many physicists do. Not an actual being that watches over the universe but simply an abject explanation for things. I hate it when scientists use the word "God" because it gives the impression of the standard supernatural being so many attribute the word to mean. If you're referring to nature as "God" than I think you're just trying to fit the word into your life any way you can. Otherwise, you are trying to explan supernaturalism with some errantly non-evidenced hullabaloo.
Unevidenced by you, perhaps . . . but I have ample evidence in my experiencing of God during meditations. God is neither impersonal, nor uninvolved . . . but God must be personally experienced (not impersonally measured or tested) in a lab. This experiencing is wholistic and it involves a "knowing" at the heart of your consciousness that simply cannot be explained or described using external referents. I "know" I am accepted and loved by God and that I and all life are one with God. If you were to perfect the skill of right brain control over your brain states while retaining conscious awareness . . . you too would have the personal evidence you are so disdainful of. Or you can continue to ignore it and not understand why others are willing to believe even stupid and ridiculous things rather than reject that internal "knowing" that they sense on some level with their right brain intuitive self.
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How does this imply God in any way, shape, or form?
Because it is experienced as a loving consciousness . . . what would you call it?
The problem I'm finding is that our measure of success, of dominance, is based on a criteria which purposely and unfairly places humans at the top.
Sophistication-Man-made concept. Irrelevant to every other living species.
Ability to change our surroundings-Irrelevant to species that do not need to change their ecosystem to live in it.
Brain capacity-Irrelevant to species who can survive without it.
Spirituality- Irrelevant, some also argue that animals are more spiritual than man because unlike us, they are more in touch with nature.
Numbers-We are definitely not first in this department.
Ability to adapt to new environments-Surprise surprise, my favourite little critters have been found thousands of feet underwater, living in very acidic or alkali conditions and even in space. Change the temperature or the pH of our bodies by a little and we begin to die.
Our notion that we dominate over this earth is just an illusion based on our dominance over even more pathetic creatures like other mammals. We are like a highschool bully, thinking we are the best but wetting our pants at the mere mention of H5N1, SARS CoV.
How does one believe in survival of the fittest, and then not let it come about.
Good point! If indeed there is an absolute truth without question of the evolutionary philosophy of "Survival of the Fittest" or random happening & events without purpose, then it's a waste of precious time even discussing it. What's going to happen will indeed happen anyway. If the ECO-GREEN Secularists prove themselves superior to the World Power Hungry Secularists who destroy our planets natural resources for personal selfish gain, then so be it. The planet will get a reprieve from it's eventual miserable fate. In the mean time it's "Eat, Drink and be Merry, for tomorrow we shall die".
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Originally Posted by freedom
To those that do believe, Yes God gave express right to dominion over all things to man. Dominion does not mean abuse and misuse, all things are to be done within the bounds of godliness.
godspeed, freedom
Well we have to assume here that the question was mainly directed at those who believe the biblical account of creation and the instructions given to Adam. Here apparently is the scripture in question. While it's true some Bibles use the word dominion, which gives the impression of harsh rule, other translations use the word or expression "have in subjection". I like the way "The Message Bible" renders it.
Genisis 1:28 - "The Message Bible"
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"Prosper! Reproduce! Fill Earth! Take charge! Be responsible for fish in the sea, and birds in the air, for every living thing that moves on the face of the earth."
Even in verses 26 & 27 of the account in Genisis 1:26-28 , God says to his creative agent Son, "let THEM or THEY can be responsible". Notice the reading here in the same translation quoted above where it shows or indicates all of mankind and not just one or two individuals , but many.
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"God spoke: 'Let us make human beings in our image, make them reflect our nature, So they can be responsible for the fish in the sea, the birds in the air, the cattle, And, yes, Earth itself."
The term used here in this translation, "be responsible", also conveys the idea of being held accountable for any misuse or abuse of the responsibilities entrusted to the individual. I do however like the expression "have in subjection" as it also reminds us of not only the counsel given at Ephesians 5:22-24 where the subjection of wives to husbands is compare to the loving way Christ is head of the Christian congregation, but also the counsel given at Ephesians 5:25-33 to Christian husbands who were not to be domineering over their wives, but were to care and show love for her as he does himself. The illustration of a husband viewing a wife as his own body (which reminds us of Jesus calling the husband and wife relationship as one flesh) and the explanation of a man who logically feeds and cherishes himself and takes care of his own needs, also likewise shows the same exact and responsible loving care for his wife. So too, mankind should show the same consideration over the environment for which he resides in and has the responsible care for under his trust.
The problem though is that Adam and Eve used their free will not only to decide for themselves their own version of what is morally right and wrong , but also they chose to determine for themselves how the Earth and it's many resources were to be used. We can see the result of disobedience today. We are at a point in time where mankind , whether you believe in an Almighty God/Creator or believe in the Evolutionary philosophy, is on the brink of their own destruction, not only of the environment, but themselves as well. Again the problem is not God, but mismanagement by mankind, even and including ESPECIALLY, those who claim to worship and obey him. The nation of Israel were given amazing environmental laws to govern their nation. Laws on cleanliness, personal hygene, animal rights, laws governing care for the land, etc. Problem was not in the laws, but lack of putting them into practice.
The solution to our environmental dilema today is not a bunch of Secularist ECO-GREEN laws enforced through threat and intimidation by a badge and a gun or other such monitary penalties, but rather humans putting on a new personality as Paul stated. Some of the best qualities a person can make as a part of their personality, are stated at
Galations 5:22 - "New International Version"
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"But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and selfcontrol. Against such things their is no law."
Again, I like the way these verses are illustrated in "The Message Bible"
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"But what happens when we live God's way? He brings gifts into our lives, much the same way that fruit appears in an orchard --- things like affection for others, exuberance about life, serenity. We develope a willingness to stick with things, a sense of compassion in the heart, and a conviction that basic holiness permeates things and people. We find ourselves in loyal commitments, not needing to force our way in life, able to direct and marshal our energies wisely.
Legalism is helpless in bringing this about; it only gets in the way."
If people put into practice such qualities in their lives and made these things a part of their personalities, then you don't need a bunch of laws making it illegal to pollute, through trash in the street, etc. You don't need alot of ECO-POLIZEI goose stepping everywhere to make sure things are in order.
I live in one of the most anti-God secularist countries in the world that prides itself as being the most ECO-GREEN & ENVIRONMENTALLY SENSITIVE and Socialistically supperior to any country on the planet. The prevailing thought of many Social intellectuals, is that all other countries must pattern themselves after this country SWEDEN. Having lived here for almost three years , I see no difference in the people or from any other country. This country is capable of being just as environmentally dirty as any other. You see trash everywhere, zillions of cigarette butts everywhere, graffiti spray painted throughout, and a wayward heavy death metal youth that make it a mission to trash every bus and trolley stop along the way. Lately there is an increase of every kind of social political protest group with their own brand of rights and wrong agendas, often demonstrating violently in the streets of Stockholm and Gothenborg. To be fair, they do have some good eco-ideas, but again it's not enough.
They have an Ethanol program for making auto fuel clean burning throughout Sweden that is disrupting the quality of life in third world countries, Ghana for example. Earlier this year back in May and april, you could see citizens of Ghana angerily protesting in the streets in that country over rising food costs because 30,000 - 50,000 hectres of land and water was going to used for Sweden's ethanol program and away from Ghana's food production. The head of Sweden's Ethanol program (Svensk Etanolkemi AB - SEKAB), Director Anders Fredriksson, said that people there should'nt complain about being able to buy food because their company was going to provide jobs to about 1,000 to 2,000 people and would be supporting about 8,000 people, who will be able to buy more food and provide school for their kids, etc. What an irresponsible comment. I did a statistics research of Ghana's population and demographics. They have 22+ million people. This company will hardly make a dent in the economy. Here's a link if you'd like to verify it.
Socialist secular Germany is another country that pats itself on the back for being ECO-GREEN. They generate a large part of their electricity off Palm Oil imported from Indonesia and Malaysia. They are personally responsible for the massive destruction of Rain Forests and extinction of many species in that part of the world. CNN had a very good documentary on this and neither the German government or the companies involved would make any comment. But boy they are ECO-GREEN compared to anybody else. Even the European Union E.U. with their numerous Socially ECO superior laws governing electronic waste being forbidden in any European land fill , has thrashed the environment of Nigeria and other African countries who are paid money to take their electronic waste off the E.U.'s hands so that they can promote themselves as ECO responsible. The USA is doing the same thing in China where million$$$ are paid to Chinese companies to smuggle Electronic waste and store it in China. The USA also has it's issues with regards to massive Ethanol quotas derived from corn production. This has made corn prices rise 51 percent in the poorer Latin countires because it is a main staple food crop of the poor in those regions. You've all seen the protests in the news.
Again, mankind in general, secular or religious has been a failure at being a responsible custodian to our planet. One way or another , this will end. The Bible gives the promise that God still has a purpose for the earth.
Isaiah 45:18 - "Amplified Bible"
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"For thus says the Lord (Jehovah), who created the heavens, God himself, Who formed the earth and made it, Who established it and did not create it to be a worthless waste; He formed it to be inhabited, I am the Lord (Jehovah) and there is no one else."
Very soon all those of the world of mankind alienated from the way of God's standards and principals, will be evicted from the Earth. This goes for both Religious and secular. Think about it Either way , God intervention or not, human society as we know it on this planet earth is on the way out.
We have the same difficulty testing for God that we have testing for your consciousness (your self). It is an energy form we cannot yet measure (like dark energy). All we can test are its effects. When we test God's effects they are called natural laws or natural processes. When we test our effects they are called human motives and decisions. Unevidenced by you, perhaps . . . but I have ample evidence in my experiencing of God during meditations. God is neither impersonal, nor uninvolved . . . but God must be personally experienced (not impersonally measured or tested) in a lab. This experiencing is wholistic and it involves a "knowing" at the heart of your consciousness that simply cannot be explained or described using external referents. I "know" I am accepted and loved by God and that I and all life are one with God. If you were to perfect the skill of right brain control over your brain states while retaining conscious awareness . . . you too would have the personal evidence you are so disdainful of. Or you can continue to ignore it and not understand why others are willing to believe even stupid and ridiculous things rather than reject that internal "knowing" that they sense on some level with their right brain intuitive self.Because it is experienced as a loving consciousness . . . what would you call it?
One of the reasons that I've always been suspicious of religious teachings is that it seems to place mankind on a separate level in which man has a natural right to dominate every other living thing for his own purposes. This concept has always struck me as evidence that religious teachings are in fact a kind of justification for putting ourselves on some sort of pedestal and imagining that we are the rulers of the world. There is no species in nature that has altered the world so dramatically as man. Every species of plant or animal lives within a framework of harmony in the natural world except for one, human beings. Our ability to adapt to any environment has allowed us to spread all over the earth and our technology has given us the power to completely alter the natural world. This is particularly obvious in modern times and as our technology continues to become more sophisticated and complex we are driving countless species to extinction as we continue to advance into rainforests and other environments in which species that we might not even know about continue to go extinct. Here is my question. Does anyone believe that mankind really has the authority to dominate the natural world based on any religious belief?
Regardless if he has the authority he definitely has the means
One of the reasons that I've always been suspicious of religious teachings is that it seems to place mankind on a separate level in which man has a natural right to dominate every other living thing for his own purposes. This concept has always struck me as evidence that religious teachings are in fact a kind of justification for putting ourselves on some sort of pedestal and imagining that we are the rulers of the world. There is no species in nature that has altered the world so dramatically as man. Every species of plant or animal lives within a framework of harmony in the natural world except for one, human beings. Our ability to adapt to any environment has allowed us to spread all over the earth and our technology has given us the power to completely alter the natural world. This is particularly obvious in modern times and as our technology continues to become more sophisticated and complex we are driving countless species to extinction as we continue to advance into rainforests and other environments in which species that we might not even know about continue to go extinct. Here is my question. Does anyone believe that mankind really has the authority to dominate the natural world based on any religious belief?
About his religious belief...everything from killing witches to the middle aged inquests and crusades not to mention his mistreatment of native American(heathens) which continues today. Men believe themselves to be supreme.
How many million beef cattle, hogs, sheep and chickens a day does it take for his palate to be sated? Now many thousand acres a day for his expansion? If aliens from another planet had come here and done the same thing it would be considered a travesty but since mankind is running the show it seems to be perfectly alright. He does what is convenient with little care for the consequences.
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Either way , God intervention or not, human society as we know it on this planet earth is on the way out. 
