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Anyone studying the bible who believes it is the literal word of God would not come to reliable conclusions because of their bias.
And do these people study it in the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek? How proficient are they in those ancient languages?
How much does the person know about the culture of the times in which the texts were written, or the biases of the people who wrote the texts? Or the idioms and cultural references they may have used?
If someone is studying it in English, which translation? They are putting their trust in someone else's interpretation.
How much does one know about the biases of the translators?
One mistranslated or misinterpreted word can change the whole meaning of a verse.
These are questions I think of when someone says they have "studied the Bible".
And do these people study it in the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek? How proficient are they in those ancient languages?
How much does the person know about the culture of the times in which the texts were written, or the biases of the people who wrote the texts? Or the idioms and cultural references they may have used?
Actually this is totally unnecessary. There have been many good scholars throughtout the ages who are specifically Greek and Hebrew language scholars who have already done the work for us. Although you may find this disappointing, it does not take an intellectual to look up meanings of words in Hebrew and Greek Lexicons or definitions of words and terms in Bible Dictionaries. Sadly most don't.
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Originally Posted by Max
If someone is studying it in English, which translation? They are putting their trust in someone else's interpretation.
How much does one know about the biases of the translators?
One mistranslated or misinterpreted word can change the whole meaning of a verse.
Here, maybe this website will help. There are actually many translations which can be of benefit. The modern reader has available to them modern Language translations which have had the benefit of dumping the old archaic lingo of the older times to a more benefical easier to understand translation. The modern translators also the added benefit of the oldest manuscripts ever found just the past century and which were not available to the earlier translators. Fortunately for us they held safely away under lock and key by well known museums and libraries where translators have the benefit of obtaining copies for themselves. They are safe from the sinister agendas of both Religious Clergy and Atheism alike who no doubt would have destroyed them years ago.
These are questions I think of when someone says they have "studied the Bible".
And here's a scripture I think of when an Intellectual Higher Critic proclaims their superiority over others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 1:26-29
"Take a good look, friends, at who you were that got called into this life. I don't see many of "the brightest and best" among you, not many influential, not many from high society families. Isn't it obvious that God chose men and women that the culture overlooks and exploits and abuses, chose these "nobodies" to expose the hollow pretensions of the somebodies?"
Now with all of your brilliant superior intellectualism, why don't you tell us which translation that comes from and why it is wrong ???
And here's a scripture I think of when an Intellectual Higher Critic proclaims their superiority over others.
Now with all of your brilliant superior intellectualism, why don't you tell us which translation that comes from and why it is wrong ???
It is easier to identify the audience that translation was designed to appeal to . . . because they are the most easily led and exploited.
Now with all of your brilliant superior intellectualism, why don't you tell us which translation that comes from and why it is wrong ???
It's from the "The Message" authored by Eugene Peterson who claims to have paraphrased from the original Greek to "bring into English the rhythms and idioms of the original ancient Greek—writing straight out of the Greek text without looking at other English translations."
Why do you state it is "wrong"? Is it because he brings his own bias into the interpretation? Is his because his doctrine disagrees with the doctrine YOU believe? Are you someone who believes that the Bible is "inerrant"?
There are NO original manuscripts in existence today. None of the earliest copies of copies of bits and pieces of copies available, are the same. It was up to the copyists and translators and interpreters to decide which version of which bit of which copy to use. They just used what manuscripts were available to them whether they were accurate or not. And most weren't. Like the early 16th century Erasmus, whose Textus Receptus (The Greek New Testament) was based on only one 12th century manuscript in Greek. A manuscript which we now know was full of errors. The bits he didn't have in this manuscript, he took from later Latin Vulgate translations and translated it back to Greek. And this was the basis for the King James Version, the Bible proudly thumped by so many American Fundamentalists as being the "inerrant" Word of God.
I notice that when you copied my post, you changed my username from Jaymax to Max. This is a perfect illustration of how mistakes can be made in copying. Jaymax is an ambigous name, suggesting neither male nor female, whereas Max is a male name, which would suggest that I am male. However I am a woman.
In response to the content of your Corinthians quote, this reminds me of a quote by Celsus (2nd cent critic) from a book by one of the early church fathers Origin (3rd Cent). Origin quotes Celsus as saying:
Quote:
"Let no one educated, no one wise, no one sensible draw near. For these abilities are thought by us to be evils. But as for anyone ignorant, anyone stupid, anyone uneducated, anyone who is a child, let him come boldly." and "Moreover, we see that those who display their secret lore in the marketplaces and go about begging would never enter a gathering of intelligent men, nor would they dare to reveal their noble beliefs in their presence; but whenever they see adolescent boys and a crowd of slaves and a company of fools, they push themselves in and show off.
Origin himself also said:
Quote:
The differences among the manuscripts have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others; they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they make additions or deletions as they please.
and
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Some believers, as though from a drinking bout, go so far as to oppose themselves and alter the original text of the gospel three or four or several times over, and they change its character to enable them to deny difficulties in face of criticism. (Against Celsus 2.27)
My point is, when reading or studying the Bible - whichever translation - it needs to be read with not just a grain of salt, but a mountain of salt, as everyone involved up to it's eventual publication and subsequent reading, has their own biases which affect what they either write or read.
I have biases, you have biases, the copyists and translators had biases, the churches commissioning the translation had biases, the church leaders and ministers have biases, the authors of the dictionaries and concordances had biases, the alleged original writers themselves had biases, Paul had biases, even the God(s) described in the manuscripts apparently had biases.
I don't subscribe to the "don't question, don't worry, other people have done all the work for us, believe what we tell you" line. I want to find out if what's being "sold" is all it's cracked up to be, not just blindly believe what I am told. I want to ask questions and invistigate. That's not intellectual superiority, it's common sense. Or perhaps it's NOT so common as it should be.
Last edited by Ceist; 03-26-2009 at 10:57 PM..
Reason: Fixed some errors - unlike some Bible copyists and translators :D
It is easier to identify the audience that translation was designed to appeal to . . . because they are the most easily led and exploited.
The audience I believe the individual was targeting was modern english reader as opposed to those who chose to recite the olde archaic Shakespeare of the "AKJV". As Paul stated, if you are not understood, you mght as well be speaking into the air.
There are infact many who believe God has the power and ability to manuver situations for preserving his own word which in the end is his personal reputation. There are also many who chose not to delve into any type of Wiccan spirit world for personal visions of truth.
Why do you state it is "wrong"? Is it because he brings his own bias into the interpretation? Is his because his doctrine disagrees with the doctrine YOU believe? Are you someone who believes that the Bible is "inerrant"?
Wow you're not even close on this one. The modern English rendering of those particular verses simply illustrated the type of humble individual needed to understand , not some scholastic intellect as you presumed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX
There are NO original manuscripts in existence today. None of the earliest copies of copies of bits and pieces of copies available, are the same.
You really need to do your homework. I never said "Original Manuscripts" , I said the "oldest available manuscripts" that archealogists have found. The beauty of their being under lock and key away from corrupted clergyman of the Churches and Atheistic Fundamentalists as yourself is that they are preserved and protected from any personally motivated corruption or destruction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxipad
I notice that when you copied my post, you changed my username from Jaymax to Max. This is a perfect illustration of how mistakes can be made in copying. Jaymax is an ambigous name, suggesting neither male nor female, whereas Max is a male name, which would suggest that I am male. However I am a woman.
How funny is this , this is not unique to you. Do your homework. I often do this with everyone. Besides I already knew you were a woman. However, there does seem to be more of an accountability issue going on here more than anything else. Interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX
My point is, when reading or studying the Bible - whichever translation - it needs to be read with not just a grain of salt, but a mountain of salt, as everyone involved up to it's eventual publication and subsequent reading, has their own biases which affect what they either write or read.
The same is equally true then with books on atheism and evolution. Large mountains of Salt should have been used to sanitation of the theory of evolution when the Nazism dogma was being formulated for the justification of extermination of a percieved lower human species.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX
I have biases, you have biases, the copyists and translators had biases, the churches commissioning the translation had biases, the church leaders and ministers have biases, the authors of the dictionaries and concordances had biases, the alleged original writers themselves had biases, Paul had biases, even the God(s) described in the manuscripts apparently had biases.
Absolutely there is bias. I find no difference in your beliefs than those of Reverends, Pastors, Priests, etc. As far as I am concerned you are all on equal ground. Your beliefs are identical, it's simply a change in terminology that makes the difference. Your being here is proof of your personal driving need to prosyletize your personal religious belief system to others. Most old school atheists were traditionally never bothered. There is an atheistic indoctrination movement which is very prevalent in our modern world's human society, and will in the end be used by God to rid the world of it's spiritistic religious belief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX
I don't subscribe to the "don't question, don't worry, other people have done all the work for us, believe what we tell you" line. I want to find out if what's being "sold" is all it's cracked up to be, not just blindly believe what I am told. I want to ask questions and invistigate. That's not intellectual superiority, it's common sense. Or perhaps it's NOT so common as it should be.
Sure you do. Your presence here is absolute proof of that. You have read your own holy books which have motivated you with the utmost enthusiasm and evangelizing spirit to be found in any religious belief system.
Wow you're not even close on this one. The modern English rendering of those particular verses simply illustrated the type of humble individual needed to understand , not some scholastic intellect as you presumed.
You really need to do your homework. I never said "Original Manuscripts" , I said the "oldest available manuscripts" that archealogists have found. The beauty of their being under lock and key away from corrupted clergyman of the Churches and Atheistic Fundamentalists as yourself is that they are preserved and protected from any personally motivated corruption or destruction.
How funny is this , this is not unique to you. Do your homework. I often do this with everyone. Besides I already knew you were a woman. However, there does seem to be more of an accountability issue going on here more than anything else. Interesting.
The same is equally true then with books on atheism and evolution. Large mountains of Salt should have been used to sanitation of the theory of evolution when the Nazism dogma was being formulated for the justification of extermination of a percieved lower human species.
Absolutely there is bias. I find no difference in your beliefs than those of Reverends, Pastors, Priests, etc. As far as I am concerned you are all on equal ground. Your beliefs are identical, it's simply a change in terminology that makes the difference. Your being here is proof of your personal driving need to prosyletize your personal religious belief system to others. Most old school atheists were traditionally never bothered. There is an atheistic indoctrination movement which is very prevalent in our modern world's human society, and will in the end be used by God to rid the world of it's spiritistic religious belief.
Sure you do. Your presence here is absolute proof of that. You have read your own holy books which have motivated you with the utmost enthusiasm and evangelizing spirit to be found in any religious belief system.
Why would I do "homework" on you? I have no idea about your posting habits. I just posted a response to what you wrote in that specific post. What's all this other fruitsalad you are going on about?
Wait...I'm hearing something....
God just told me to pass on the message to you that you're full of *** dung and haven't been listening. Oh and to brush your teeth. I think I heard the message correctly, but I could be mistaken.
If Moses was rescued and raised by an Egyptian princess as a baby, how did he learn about the God of Abraham? Do you think he might have been raised to worship Egyptian Gods? Could the OT be a combination of the Hebrew's God and the Egyptian's Gods?
The Angels of God kept telling me that The God that The Christians all worship is actually The Tree of Eternal Life but they do not know it. It produces Gods & Sons of God from its branches that walk around in its garden. They are one with The Tree & will grant you access to The Tree to become immortal when all your evil & wickedness is removed from you.
The Bible is solely about The Tree of Eternal Life & how you can be given its fruit if you become good like Jesus. He produced fruit & gave freely to all just as a tree does. He did not have the beast nature the rest of us have. He only had The Tree nature. We have to cleanse ourselves of the beast nature & become like fruit trees that simply produce good fruits & give to all without any thought of return. That is perfection & that makes you worthy to be given eternal life from The Tree of Eternal Life.
Jesus demonstrates how to do that. How to be good & do good deeds daily, & never let the beast nature take over & rule you & make you selfish.
The Tree of Life is mentioned at the beginning of The Bible, & at the end of The Bible, as The Only Thing That Can Save You. The Only Thing. Remember that. And It appeared to Moses & Said "I Am God". And it was worshipped as God in Egypt for thousands of years before Moses got there.
The Tree is outside of time & space & becomes bigger than the universe & smaller than an ant. It primarily manifests as a small bush & was worshipped as God in Egypt since the beginning of their civilisations. You will see it in all their earliest art.
So "Moses" met the God that Egypt had always worshipped & It told him it is God of his own people. All peoples knew about it & called it God. You'll see it in the art of most all the earliest peoples. It is the God of the universe.
The Bible says The Tree of Eternal Life is the only thing that can give anyone eternal life. So It is the only thing that matters. Nothing else in The Bible matters. Only The Tree of Life that was always worshipped by The Egyptians & other nations before Moses learned about It.
So He assumed it was his own God & the God of his tribe, when actually it was also The God of Egypt & always had been, & it always had been the God of all peoples throughout the world at the very beginning.
Last edited by ocean777; 11-28-2019 at 12:02 PM..
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Besides I already knew you were a woman. However, there does seem to be more of an accountability issue going on here more than anything else. Interesting.
