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The real solution to the "Creation vs. Evolution" debate is one that neither side wants. That solution is to give kids in high school a course, even if it's just one year of high school, in which they are taught enough about philosophy to understand basic logic and reason, and what the fundamental influences are on metaphysical as well as naturalist worldviews.
Creationists won't want this because it will allow evolution to be taught in the science class, even though the kids would be educated as to the limits of science from a purely philosophical, basic logic and reason perspective. Unfortunately, too many Creationists feel too threatened by evolutionary theory.
Evolutionists who are naturalists (which is most of them and most atheists) won't want this because they summarily dismiss any notion of a metaphysical and wish to impose their naturalist view upon everyone else as well. Many of them go as far as to blame metaphysics or supernatural beliefs for the ills of the world.
To me, it's two stubborn, ignorant sides who are playing a game of political football, neither side willing to budge and both sides insisting on imposing upon others their worldview. As a Creationist, I am sympathetic to the plight of the creationists, but I also see where the narrow thinking and stubbornness on their (our?) side is impeding progress; then again, it's hard for me to be critical of that when the other side is just as stubborn and narrow-minded and offers no compromise themselves.
Anyway, I don't see my post having much influence on this debate, so go ahead and continue on with the tug-o-war...
The real solution to the "Creation vs. Evolution" debate is one that neither side wants. That solution is to give kids in high school a course, even if it's just one year of high school, in which they are taught enough about philosophy to understand basic logic and reason, and what the fundamental influences are on metaphysical as well as naturalist worldviews.
Creationists won't want this because it will allow evolution to be taught in the science class, even though the kids would be educated as to the limits of science from a purely philosophical, basic logic and reason perspective. Unfortunately, too many Creationists feel too threatened by evolutionary theory.
Evolutionists who are naturalists (which is most of them and most atheists) won't want this because they summarily dismiss any notion of a metaphysical and wish to impose their naturalist view upon everyone else as well. Many of them go as far as to blame metaphysics or supernatural beliefs for the ills of the world.
To me, it's two stubborn, ignorant sides who are playing a game of political football, neither side willing to budge and both sides insisting on imposing upon others their worldview. As a Creationist, I am sympathetic to the plight of the creationists, but I also see where the narrow thinking and stubbornness on their (our?) side is impeding progress; then again, it's hard for me to be critical of that when the other side is just as stubborn and narrow-minded and offers no compromise themselves.
Anyway, I don't see my post having much influence on this debate, so go ahead and continue on with the tug-o-war...
This is untrue. Evolutionists who are atheists don't have a materialistic agenda by not wanting Creationism taught in science class. Science class is for teaching students about facts, not fiction. Evolution is actual science and a fact of life. Creationism is not science and not fact, therefore should not be taught in science class.
The real solution to the "Creation vs. Evolution" debate is one that neither side wants. That solution is to give kids in high school a course, even if it's just one year of high school, in which they are taught enough about philosophy to understand basic logic and reason, and what the fundamental influences are on metaphysical as well as naturalist worldviews.
Creationists won't want this because it will allow evolution to be taught in the science class, even though the kids would be educated as to the limits of science from a purely philosophical, basic logic and reason perspective. Unfortunately, too many Creationists feel too threatened by evolutionary theory.
Evolutionists who are naturalists (which is most of them and most atheists) won't want this because they summarily dismiss any notion of a metaphysical and wish to impose their naturalist view upon everyone else as well. Many of them go as far as to blame metaphysics or supernatural beliefs for the ills of the world.
To me, it's two stubborn, ignorant sides who are playing a game of political football, neither side willing to budge and both sides insisting on imposing upon others their worldview. As a Creationist, I am sympathetic to the plight of the creationists, but I also see where the narrow thinking and stubbornness on their (our?) side is impeding progress; then again, it's hard for me to be critical of that when the other side is just as stubborn and narrow-minded and offers no compromise themselves.
Anyway, I don't see my post having much influence on this debate, so go ahead and continue on with the tug-o-war...
I am an atheist/"evolutionist" and I would absolutely LOVE if kids were taught philosophy (metaphysics and naturalism) in school. I don't think you would find many atheists who would be against teaching the principles and ideas in metaphysics.
However, if you are just masquerading the term 'metaphysics' as 'christianity', then of course there will be an issue. If you are going to teach kids about christianity, then you need to teach them about other religions in a 'Religion' class. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that Religion=Metaphysics. It is merely a very very small subset of it and is better categorized as theology.
I have been debating Evolution and Creation for a while now and I've found that the idiotic lies and blatant misconceptions presented by the Creationist side will continue on. While I still see the need to interject and inoculate other people from this dangerous mind virus we call "Creationism," I have come to some conclusions.
First and foremost, I have come to the conclusion that for those who wish to willfully ignore and misunderstand what Science is, there is most likely no cure for this mind virus. The good news is that the vaccination is merely an explanation of ration, logic, and what actual science consists of to those who may be susceptible to such things.
Second, I have come to the conclusion that Atheism and Evolution are not mutually bound up together in some sort of twisted knot of simile. Unfortunately, a very common side effect of this mind virus called "Creationism" is the idea that as soon as someone believes in evolution they will then become an atheist or that their faith hangs in the balance.
As a result of this line of reasoning, I have come to the realization that this mind virus eerily enough not only has a way of infecting the ration and logic centers but that it can also affect people and their faith in such a way that it convinces them their faith is "on the line" and "challenged" by science.
Although there is still much to be debated in regards to this matter, it does seem that the very nature of 'Creationism' seeks to destroy faith from the inside out. Like a cellular invader, it goes to the heart of the believers system, hijacks it, and then insists on telling it that there is only the 'Creationist' way or no way at all. Although this compromise of integrity seems to be unrecognizable to the infected, it becomes blatantly obvious to those who are uninfected that something has been compromised with the system. In the end, the final stages of this mind virus allow for a much weakened immune system with symptomatic problems of: denial of anything and everything contradictory, making any excuse possible to salvage credibility, and continually 'moving the goalposts' in order to save face and not have to answer the question with valid evidence.
Finally, in the end stages of this mind virus, the person makes continual appearances on internet forums and sometimes at lectures to promote their weakened faith and altered way of thinking. It seeks to infect others, destroy their faith from within and it even makes feeble attempts at infecting those who are inoculated.
To think this mind virus started with a bunch of redneck farmers around the turn of the century in the Deep South is the unthinkable thing. How such a virus from such inane and stupid origins could spread to such great lengths damaging people and taking their money is unbelievable. It seems like it wasn't but a few years prior to the slavery mind virus being defeated, those same people, with their same weakened immune systems, developed another pathogen to infect the minds of others.
Help stop the spread of Creationism. It's a cancerous growth that holds the potential to be detrimental to our society. It seeks to isolate those who have no faith with those who do in such a way that no good can come of it. It weakens faith and destroys the ration and logic centers of the mind.
I have been debating Evolution and Creation for a while now and I've found that the idiotic lies and blatant misconceptions presented by the Creationist side will continue on. While I still see the need to interject and inoculate other people from this dangerous mind virus we call "Creationism," I have come to some conclusions.
First and foremost, I have come to the conclusion that for those who wish to willfully ignore and misunderstand what Science is, there is most likely no cure for this mind virus. The good news is that the vaccination is merely an explanation of ration, logic, and what actual science consists of to those who may be susceptible to such things.
Second, I have come to the conclusion that Atheism and Evolution are not mutually bound up together in some sort of twisted knot of simile. Unfortunately, a very common side effect of this mind virus called "Creationism" is the idea that as soon as someone believes in evolution they will then become an atheist or that their faith hangs in the balance.
As a result of this line of reasoning, I have come to the realization that this mind virus eerily enough not only has a way of infecting the ration and logic centers but that it can also affect people and their faith in such a way that it convinces them their faith is "on the line" and "challenged" by science.
Although there is still much to be debated in regards to this matter, it does seem that the very nature of 'Creationism' seeks to destroy faith from the inside out. Like a cellular invader, it goes to the heart of the believers system, hijacks it, and then insists on telling it that there is only the 'Creationist' way or no way at all. Although this compromise of integrity seems to be unrecognizable to the infected, it becomes blatantly obvious to those who are uninfected that something has been compromised with the system. In the end, the final stages of this mind virus allow for a much weakened immune system with symptomatic problems of: denial of anything and everything contradictory, making any excuse possible to salvage credibility, and continually 'moving the goalposts' in order to save face and not have to answer the question with valid evidence.
Finally, in the end stages of this mind virus, the person makes continual appearances on internet forums and sometimes at lectures to promote their weakened faith and altered way of thinking. It seeks to infect others, destroy their faith from within and it even makes feeble attempts at infecting those who are inoculated.
To think this mind virus started with a bunch of redneck farmers around the turn of the century in the Deep South is the unthinkable thing. How such a virus from such inane and stupid origins could spread to such great lengths damaging people and taking their money is unbelievable. It seems like it wasn't but a few years prior to the slavery mind virus being defeated, those same people, with their same weakened immune systems, developed another pathogen to infect the minds of others.
Help stop the spread of Creationism. It's a cancerous growth that holds the potential to be detrimental to our society. It seeks to isolate those who have no faith with those who do in such a way that no good can come of it. It weakens faith and destroys the ration and logic centers of the mind.
Hear, hear ! Unfortunately you and I both know that logic and reason has little to do with it all and that we argue this in vain . None so deaf as those who refuse to listen. Creationism is the "poster child" for ignorance and shows an astonishing lack of scientific understanding, enquiry and rigour.
I have "learnt" a lot on this forum, most of it shocking and mind boggling. I must admit I was not prepared for some of the views on offer in this 21st century . It has made me re-evalue certain aspects of Christianity in a whole new and very unflattering light.
I was not prepared for medieval thinking in a modern society like America but there it is.
If only if was not so tragic we might be able to simply laugh it off but it is a dangerous cancer and eats at our intellectual integrity.
But if there is one thing I learnt is that nothing we say will ever change the minds of those who have closed their cerebral capacity to reality. The word brick wall springs to mind...
Actually we have no problem with teaching science in a science class, the problem is giving limited theories for a broad subject or declaring facts where none exist.
Good thing we don't do this. Cutting edge science is usually reserved for upper level undergraduate or post-graduate work, not grade school. The basics of science which are taught in high school are well supported by the evidence.
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I am glad you brought this up. Do you realize the theories of evolution on many levels are mathamatically impossible given the timeframe we are presented with.
No, I don't. Apparently none of the millions of biologists who work in the field professionally are aware of it either. But someone who thinks that "Asogenesis" is a real world is here to tell all of them what's up. Let's see your math.
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As I said before the wrong areas are in conflict. It should not be Creation vs Evolution for they are not really in conflict other than a few theories. Instead creation should be in conflict with the Big Bang or what was that other word? Asogenesis or something like that.
Creationism isn't in conflict with these either since it's not a scientific theory. It's religious mythology so of course there's no conflict with real science in the mind of anyone who understands how these things work. I can see that someone who thinks that "Asogenesis" is a scientific field of study might be confused, but don't project that on to others.
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Evolution is merely adaption that has been observed, but its theories concerning something beyond adaption or mutation that are in conflict with the Biblical account while also complimenting the Bible in that it requires a miracle or a designer.
Now you're just making stuff up. Please post some references to peer-reviewed scientific work that shows that evolution requires miracles or a designer.
I'm sorry, I don't remember "it's OK to lie if everyone else is doing it" as something Jesus taught. Heck, my parents were smart enough to see through "but everyone else is doing it". Why do creationists think that particular excuse is going to make God any happier when they're doing it in his name?
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look at the example of the founding fathers being selectively quoted to counter Christianity when in fact the majority of the founders were Christian and the nation was created with Christian values.
And those examples are? Come on, don't leave us in suspense.
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Actually, if we are all honest, small gradual changes in some systems would be illogical without a designer.
I'm not sure your logic is all that reassuring. We see small gradual changes in systems without designers all the time. Why is something that's actually observed illogical? When someone's "logic" conflicts with the real world, I'll take reality any day.
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Can we please have an example?
Irreducible complexity, once concept discussed in the article, has been soundly rejected by real scientists.
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Actually as I pointed out earlier both sides are very selective in their assesments.
You can say this all you want, but for some reason if all you do is assert without providing any evidence it it's less than convincing.
Whatever happens "usually" is irrelevant. We're not talking about the scientific community. We're talking about the legal system. Such court cases have been tried with full opportunity and legal protections afforded the creationists to make their claims in full and be heard before a jury. They have failed to make a convincing argument.
Not thrown out. Look it up. National Geographic I believe has a whole documentary on one court case. I think you're simply trying to protect your views rather than seek truth objectively.
Or if you're interested in primary sources, Kitzmiller, et al v. Dover School District, et al. is one of the most recent public defeats of attempts to dress up creation myths and bring them to schools, but not the only one. Interesting read on how the tactics seen here change when the people involved are under risk of serious penalties for lying.
Hear, hear ! Unfortunately you and I both know that logic and reason has little to do with it all and that we argue this in vain . None so deaf as those who refuse to listen. Creationism is the "poster child" for ignorance and shows an astonishing lack of scientific understanding, enquiry and rigour.
I have "learnt" a lot on this forum, most of it shocking and mind boggling. I must admit I was not prepared for some of the views on offer in this 21st century . It has made me re-evalue certain aspects of Christianity in a whole new and very unflattering light.
I was not prepared for medieval thinking in a modern society like America but there it is.
If only if was not so tragic we might be able to simply laugh it off but it is a dangerous cancer and eats at our intellectual integrity.
But if there is one thing I learnt is that nothing we say will ever change the minds of those who have closed their cerebral capacity to reality. The word brick wall springs to mind...
Would it be fair for me to "re-evalue [sic]" certain aspects of Atheism/Agnositicism in a whole new and very unflattering light based on what I have "learnt" on this forum, most of it shocking and mind boggling in regards to said people's take on "logic"??? No, it wouldn't, and I wouldn't be so ignorant as to paint all atheists and agnostics with the same brush, based on the ignorance so many of them display in this forum.
The fact of the matter is that the people who argue in these forums are largely two sides of the same coin. Equally bigoted, stubborn, and closed-minded, each one has a "side" and a view to which each one is resolute, and each one uses the other stubborn one as a template by which to stereotype all people of that "type". In other words, the stubborn Christians here pin the same stereotype on all anti-religionists based on the actions of the ones here, in this forum, and at the same time the anti-religionists pin the same stereotype on all Christians based on the actions of the ones here, in this forum. The ignorance is identical as is the stereotyping.
The reality is that the rational atheists, agnostics, and Christians seldom post here and even more seldom post here regularly.
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Unfortunately you and I both know that logic and reason has little to do with it all and that we argue this in vain . None so deaf as those who refuse to listen. Creationism is the "poster child" for ignorance and shows an astonishing lack of scientific understanding, enquiry and rigour. 