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Many Christians use Flavius Josephus, Lucian of Samasota, and a few other sources who sadly are proven to be tampered with or inaccurate or reading too far into what they write (e.g., they're called Christians, therefore Christ MUST have existed ... which is wrong).
So ... I'm just curious, what independent verification do the more doubtful or seeking Christians use to verify Jesus Christ's existence?
I do not aim to flame Christians, nor do I aim to spur contentious debate about whether Jesus existed or not.
I simply want evidence and sources to read up on. I am totally open minded about this.
One last note - I do not believe the Bible to be a reliable source because of how shall we say "conflict of interest" ... meaning, a Christian text will necessarily support Christian viewpoints, and thus must be removed from the equation in order for any argument of Jesus' existence to be logically sound.
If not, all I can surmise is that worshipping Jesus or following Christianity is nothing more than a modern version of sun worship, pioneered more than 10,000 years ago.
They're called "Christians" because it is derived from the Greek word "Christos" or "the anointed one." So being called a Christian is basically nothing more than saying you are an anointed one who follows a person named Jesus, who so far as I can tell, never existed.
If in case this is hard to swallow, try this out, look at the attributes below, and think about what comes to mind. I'll point out what it shows me, and can be verified in historical texts and numerous references:
Born of a virgin woman
Killed / crucified, died, ascended into heaven (either bodily or spiritually) 3 days after death
3rd day after dying is when resurrection took place
Performed many miracles when alive
Is commonly referred to as the Son of God or the Sun God or what have you
Had 12 desciples.
Ready? These traits are shared among Horus, the Sun God of Egypt, Attis, Krishna, Dionysus, Mithra and Jesus Christ. Jesus was the newest of all of these deities.
In fact, when Christianity was spreading, some tribes were skeptical over the "new god" but found it easier to swallow when it was compared to previously accepted Roman and Greek gods of the time, since the mystic stories were nearly identical.
The ancient people were no idiots, and found inventive ways to explain the meaning of the strange universe around them. It's no wonder that people were skeptical of change, since many of the roots of ancient mysticism is in fact rooted in math and observation.
The death and resurrection in 3 days, for example. There is a reason why so many religions use the days around Christmas (25th of December) as a means of "resurrection" or returning from the dead. Imagine you're an ancient person. Life is hard, death is everywhere from famine, disease, and war and just plain bad luck. Now imagine that it's winter time. You look towards any hope of the new harvest and better times.
Then you hear a story about a death and resurrection around December 25th. That makes total sense because from 22nd to 25th of December, from certain meridians, the sun reaches the lowest point in the sky and does not visibly move for 3 days. Then it moves higher in the sky, promising a return to spring and a bountiful harvest.
Thus, in essence, worshipping Jesus Christ is basically the same as worshipping Horus, the Sun God, or the Sun itself, or the math behind it. I find it interesting that many Christians (or religious people of any religion, in general) don't know this, instead preferring to believe in literal translations of the Bible, which has been shown to be fraught with issues, circular reasoning, and obvious tampering. I see this as a source of common ground, however, as I enjoy and relish in mathematics, so it is a strange twist.
My final point here is that I do not wish to rain on anyone's parade. You must believe what you want to. I just prefer to show people the truth behind so-called "facts" preached by far too many a false preacher and prophet. Learning the truth will only set you free, and a stronger basis for believing what you want.
If you don't believe separate ancient texts that harmonize with each other about Christ's existence, then you probably won't find anything that meets a standard you would accept.
Having said that, most atheists, skeptics, and unbiased professionals do acknowledge the fact that Jesus(the man) existed....or at least probably did.
Your exclusion of four distinct separate ancient works (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) really attest to your unwillingness to look at information objectively.
If not, all I can surmise is that worshipping Jesus or following Christianity is nothing more than a modern version of sun worship, pioneered more than 10,000 years ago.
They're called "Christians" because it is derived from the Greek word "Christos" or "the anointed one." So being called a Christian is basically nothing more than saying you are an anointed one who follows a person named Jesus, who so far as I can tell, never existed.
If in case this is hard to swallow, try this out, look at the attributes below, and think about what comes to mind. I'll point out what it shows me, and can be verified in historical texts and numerous references:
Born of a virgin woman
Killed / crucified, died, ascended into heaven (either bodily or spiritually) 3 days after death
3rd day after dying is when resurrection took place
Performed many miracles when alive
Is commonly referred to as the Son of God or the Sun God or what have you
Had 12 desciples.
Ready? These traits are shared among Horus, the Sun God of Egypt, Attis, Krishna, Dionysus, Mithra and Jesus Christ. Jesus was the newest of all of these deities.
In fact, when Christianity was spreading, some tribes were skeptical over the "new god" but found it easier to swallow when it was compared to previously accepted Roman and Greek gods of the time, since the mystic stories were nearly identical.
The ancient people were no idiots, and found inventive ways to explain the meaning of the strange universe around them. It's no wonder that people were skeptical of change, since many of the roots of ancient mysticism is in fact rooted in math and observation.
The death and resurrection in 3 days, for example. There is a reason why so many religions use the days around Christmas (25th of December) as a means of "resurrection" or returning from the dead. Imagine you're an ancient person. Life is hard, death is everywhere from famine, disease, and war and just plain bad luck. Now imagine that it's winter time. You look towards any hope of the new harvest and better times.
Then you hear a story about a death and resurrection around December 25th. That makes total sense because from 22nd to 25th of December, from certain meridians, the sun reaches the lowest point in the sky and does not visibly move for 3 days. Then it moves higher in the sky, promising a return to spring and a bountiful harvest.
Thus, in essence, worshipping Jesus Christ is basically the same as worshipping Horus, the Sun God, or the Sun itself.
.
Wow, that was a huge edit to your 'bump'...but anyway.....
If you don't believe separate ancient texts that harmonize with each other about Christ's existence, then you probably won't find anything that meets a standard you would accept.
Having said that, most atheists, skeptics, and unbiased professionals do acknowledge the fact that Jesus(the man) existed....or at least probably did.
Your exclusion of four distinct separate ancient works (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) really attest to your unwillingness to look at information objectively.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are part of the Bible. Therefore they are part of the Christian texts and therefore fraught with "conflict of interest" in terms of proving Jesus' existence. Thus to be intellectually honest you cannot use the Bible to prove Jesus' existence.
Besides, having someone who performed miracles and could walk on water, etc. would have had ALL the great thinkers and philosophers and historians writing about him at the same time. But do we find this evidence? No. At least no concrete ones.
That is also ignoring the fact that many of those texts are fraught with mistranslations, edits, and being written many many years after Jesus lived.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are part of the Bible. Therefore they are part of the Christian texts and therefore fraught with "conflict of interest" in terms of proving Jesus' existence. Thus to be intellectually honest you cannot use the Bible to prove Jesus' existence.
Besides, having someone who performed miracles and could walk on water, etc. would have had ALL the great thinkers and philosophers and historians writing about him at the same time. But do we find this evidence? No. At least no concrete ones.
That is also ignoring the fact that many of those texts are fraught with mistranslations, edits, and being written many many years after Jesus lived.
But the bible, as I am sure you are aware, is not A book but rather a collection of various texts.
No one can actually prove beyond any doubt that Jesus existed. He was told to leave nothing. No writing, no children, nothing.
I can give you over 2000 + messages from Him but that will still not prove His existence. I can tell you that I was in His presence but that still won't prove to you anything. I can tell you that He has manifested to people and that still won't prove anything. If you want actual hard core proof, you won't find it.
If you really, really want to know, ask him to show Himself to you. Ask Him if He's real. Depending on your intent, He may or may not show you.
His birthday, by the way, is August 21st. Was not born of a virgin. Mary knew Joseph before Jesus was conceived. And there were more than 12 desciples.
Many Christians use Flavius Josephus, Lucian of Samasota, and a few other sources who sadly are proven to be tampered with or inaccurate or reading too far into what they write (e.g., they're called Christians, therefore Christ MUST have existed ... which is wrong).
So ... I'm just curious, what independent verification do the more doubtful or seeking Christians use to verify Jesus Christ's existence?
I do not aim to flame Christians, nor do I aim to spur contentious debate about whether Jesus existed or not.
I simply want evidence and sources to read up on. I am totally open minded about this.
One last note - I do not believe the Bible to be a reliable source because of how shall we say "conflict of interest" ... meaning, a Christian text will necessarily support Christian viewpoints, and thus must be removed from the equation in order for any argument of Jesus' existence to be logically sound.
I am kind of in a rush right now, but let me give you my quick 2 cents. First off, try the works of Tacitus, Suetonius, Phlegon (which are referenced by a man named Origen), Pliny the Younger, Thallus, the Jewish Talmud etc etc.
Furthermore, don't quite refute the validity of Josephus, while it is true that there were some people who tampered with the work, there has been a recent document uncovered that supposedly doesn't contain all the content in regard to Jesus' lordship or divinity. The original document regards His existence, just not His divinity.
Just a small sample to what I hope will be an interesting thread.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are part of the Bible. Therefore they are part of the Christian texts and therefore fraught with "conflict of interest" in terms of proving Jesus' existence. Thus to be intellectually honest you cannot use the Bible to prove Jesus' existence.
Besides, having someone who performed miracles and could walk on water, etc. would have had ALL the great thinkers and philosophers and historians writing about him at the same time. But do we find this evidence? No. At least no concrete ones.
That is also ignoring the fact that many of those texts are fraught with mistranslations, edits, and being written many many years after Jesus lived.
In regards to the first part, you are right. As an historian, you must look at the potential bias found in each source you read (Christian, agnostic, and atheist alike).
In the second part, you must remember that while Jesus may have had a unique ministry He was also performing this ministry in a remote part of the Roman Empire. Israel was only a small part of the empire and wasn't considered that significant of a province, thus it would seem logical that other great philosophers and writers of the time who were residing in other parts of the empire may not have even heard of what was going on, which would make sense considering that the ministry of Paul did not reach the Roman capitol until around 40 CE, seven years after the death of Christ. If that is true, then any other testimony would be difficult to come by.
In regards to the last part, I must ask you where the evidence is for your stance. You claim the text is riddled with mistranslations, edits, and has to suffer the reality of being written many, many , many years after Christ supposedly had lived, but what evidence do you have for this claim. Scholars have spent that past 2000 years studying the word making sure that the text was translated accurately and as close to the original meaning. Furthermore, what part of the text do you assume to be edited and why? And finally, the last gospel wasn't written until around 96 CE, roughly 66 years after the death of Christ, which is still a long period of time but not as long as the works of Homer(which have a 500 year time gap), Plato's Tetralogies (1300 years) and the works of Aristotle (1400 years). These works have a far greater time gap, yet would you not agree then that it is plausible that these works have been tampered with, perhaps even more so than the Bible? Just food for thought.
Hope to hear from you
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