Top Catholic Cardinal: "Gays won't go to heaven" (quote, marriage)
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Not that I'm on the same page as him, but an odd element to this is you don't believe gays go to the kingdom of heaven either. In atheism/naturalism gays go to the same place as pedophiles, serial-killers, Nazis, priests, nurses, social workers, and teachers. That place being oblivion. .
That is why I didn't bother to answer. If one does not believe in heaven, then what do they care whether or not gays go there. Atheists jump into defending gays every time, but they do not realize that there are gays who believe there is God and heaven, but they are torn by the scripture which condemns their lifestyle. I can imagine that being a difficult spot to be in. Anyway, they are not on the same page with atheists who deny God outright.
That is why I didn't bother to answer. If one does not believe in heaven, then what do they care whether or not gays go there. Atheists jump into defending gays every time, but they do not realize that there are gays who believe there is God and heaven, but they are torn by the scripture which condemns their lifestyle. I can imagine that being a difficult spot to be in. Anyway, they are not on the same page with atheists who deny God outright.
Maybe in your own personal delusion. The fact is that atheists accept these folk for who they are as we already know that what they are is not a choice whereas in your camp, it is deemed a choice.
You would think that by now you fundies would have come to the conclusion that if gays still exist today in spite of the barbaric way folk dealt with the over the last 3500 years that this has nothing to do with choice. The majority and I woul;d hazard a guess of greater than 90% come out of theist homes so what went wrong? Is it your equally mythical satan (derived BTW by a direct transliteration of the Hebrew sawtan or sawtawn (just drop the dubyas like we did with your last St Shrub) which means nothing more than an adversary and is NOT a being like a fallen angel but that is whole other topic I am prepared to debate with you) that is making these folk being attracted to the same sex?
Well your archaic beliefs do not hold water and as folk seek acceptance for who they are irrespective of their sexual preferences, you know unconditional love and all, then it is pretty obvious they will amble over to our side of the fence whereas in your camp, you hate the sin but luuuuv the sinner hence keeping then in condemnation.
So why would they choose us baby eating, child molesting atheists - oh wait - it seems the child molesters and weirdos are in your camp, my bad.
The same scrips that condemn teh ghey also condemn disobedient children, consumption of shellfish, obesity et al. Why not show us some consistency and go stone a few fat farts and rebellious children or do these laws in the same book of your wholey babble not apply anymore?
If it the "ick" factor that really bothers you, I am sure no "sane homo" will be attracted to you so I'd bet my family jewels on the odds that you are quite safe should you ever have to share a communal shower with one and have to bend over and pick up your dropped bar of soap. unless you're in prison of course.
The problem as I see it, is that we live in a vastly different culture compared to several thousand years ago. We no longer have pagan shrines with temple prostitutes using sacred ritual sex practices to honour the local fertility gods so that the land would be fertile and crops would be bounteous for example.
Another example are the Greek words "malakoi" and "arsenokoitai" used by Paul in 1 Cor 6 in his laundry list of people who won't see the Kingdom of God. However since 1946, many English translators have started to use the word "homosexuals" to include both these words. However neither of these words were used in secular Greek texts of the time to mean homosexuals.
"malakoi" literally meant "soft" and several other NT verses use the verb form to describe "fine or luxuriois clothing". Over the years, it variously meant someone who lived a "soft life", someone who was lazy and indolent, then someone who was morally lax etc. Then for centuries it was used in 1 Cor 6 to mean masturbators, before being translated to mean "homosexuals" in more recent times. .
The meaning of "arsenokoites" has also been changed over time since Paul used it in two verses -1 Cor 6:9 and 1 Tim 1:10. There is a lot of debate about what Paul was actually referring to. Some English translations have also translated this word as "sodomite", however this has as no textual, linguistic or historical support.
From everything I've studied, I believe Paul was referring to men who used male temple prostitutes or men who traded or used in male sex slaves. The later use of the word "arsenokoites" in extant Greek texts show that it did NOT mean "homosexuals". Jeramy Townsley has a great web reference with all the known uses of the word in Greek texts since the 1st century AD. TLG Search for arsenokoit*
Some conservative authors(I won't call them scholars) have tried to claim "malakoi" means effeminate passive homosexuals in the anal sex act and that "arsenokoitai" means the homosexual aggressor in the anal sex act. There's not a lot to support this theory.
So really, it's just men who used or traded in male sex-slaves or male temple prostitutes that won't be seeing that Kingdom of God...unless you think all homosexuals are male temple prostitutes worhsipping pagan fertility gods or use or trade in sex-slaves?
Frankly, I think the Catholic church should have stuck with using 1 Cor 6 to condemn wankers like it did for centuries, then the "good cardinal" would definitely be left standing outside those pearly gates, or perhaps some place a little warmer..
The problem as I see it, is that we live in a vastly different culture compared to several thousand years ago. We no longer have pagan shrines with temple prostitutes using sacred ritual sex practices to honour the local fertility gods so that the land would be fertile and crops would be bounteous for example.
Another example are the Greek words "malakoi" and "arsenokoitai" used by Paul in 1 Cor 6 in his laundry list of people who won't see the Kingdom of God. However since 1946, many English translators have started to use the word "homosexuals" to include both these words. However neither of these words were used in secular Greek texts of the time to mean homosexuals.
"malakoi" literally meant "soft" and several other NT verses use the verb form to describe "fine or luxuriois clothing". Over the years, it variously meant someone who lived a "soft life", someone who was lazy and indolent, then someone who was morally lax etc. Then for centuries it was used in 1 Cor 6 to mean masturbators, before being translated to mean "homosexuals" in more recent times. .
The meaning of "arsenokoites" has also been changed over time since Paul used it in two verses -1 Cor 6:9 and 1 Tim 1:10. There is a lot of debate about what Paul was actually referring to. Some English translations have also translated this word as "sodomite", however this has as no textual, linguistic or historical support.
From everything I've studied, I believe Paul was referring to men who used male temple prostitutes or men who traded or used in male sex slaves. The later use of the word "arsenokoites" in extant Greek texts show that it did NOT mean "homosexuals". Jeramy Townsley has a great web reference with all the known uses of the word in Greek texts since the 1st century AD. TLG Search for arsenokoit*
Some conservative authors(I won't call them scholars) have tried to claim "malakoi" means effeminate passive homosexuals in the anal sex act and that "arsenokoitai" means the homosexual aggressor in the anal sex act. There's not a lot to support this theory.
So really, it's just men who used or traded in male sex-slaves or male temple prostitutes that won't be seeing that Kingdom of God...unless you think all homosexuals are male temple prostitutes worhsipping pagan fertility gods or use or trade in sex-slaves?
Frankly, I think the Catholic church should have stuck with using 1 Cor 6 to condemn wankers like it did for centuries, then the "good cardinal" would definitely be left standing outside those pearly gates, or perhaps some place a little warmer..
Original word (Greek) arsenokoites - ajrsenokoivthß Translation: one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual.
Also, I don't think the following verse "the men burned with passion for one another" refers to prostitution. Or have you heard of prostitutes who burn with passion for her/his 'clients'?
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 12-28-2009 at 10:13 AM..
Original word (Greek) arsenokoites - ajrsenokoivthß Translation: one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual.
Umm... did you not notice that you linked to the King James Version of the Greek Lexicon?
Did you not read the part where I said that where the KJV translators used the word "sodomite", the verses have been since corrected in most modern english versions to "male shrine prostitutes? And provided the links to all the multiple version verses? You've already shown your lack of credibility by claiming that the Bible references homosexuality as "a vile sexual perversion" many times.
I don't know which version you read, but none of the versions I've read, reference homosexuality as "a vile sexual perversion" on every second page like yours must do.
In fact, any same-sex-acts hardly rate a mention at all throughout the whole Bible. (homosexuality as a sexual orientation is not mentioned). And those very few verses that do referece same-sex acts, are usually in the context of abusive (eg rape or sex slavery) or idolatrous (eg temple prositution)sexual practices....
Umm... did you not notice that you linked to the King James Version of the Greek Lexicon?
The same site as you used, but I did not quote the KJV definition. There are two translations in your site, one labeled "Definition", and the other "King James Defnitinion". I used the first one, not the KJV one.
Thanks for the site BTW.
So, have you heard of many male prostitutes who burn with passion for their clients? Come one now. The passage talks about men who burn with passion for each other, and have sex with each other. And women too. It's pretty far fetched to think it talks about prostitutes. And no, the same word was NOT used in 2 Kings.
Also, I don't think the following verse "the men burned with passion for one another" refers to prostitution. Or have you heard of prostitutes who burn with passion for her/his 'clients'?
sheesh. You really haven't done ANY study on this have you?
Once again, Paul was talking about Roman Christian gentiles (they weren't actually called Christians at that time) who had turned away from God and reverted back to worshipping their old pagan fertility gods. If you'd spent some time reading the whole letter and researching first century Roman pagan religious practices, instead of reading isolated english translations out of context on your favourite anti-gay websites, you'd know that these practices involved ritual sex orgies in pagan temples where everyone would have wild sex with everyone else (opposite gender or same gender) in honour of the fertility gods. Paul also references the idols they made.
Just because a bunch of ex-christian gentiles went back to their old gods and got involved in ritual sex orgies in pagan temples, and made statues of their gods, does NOT make them homosexuals.
It's hard to believe that amyone with ha;f a brain could think 1 Romans is in any way a description of homosexuals at all, let alone homosexuals in the 21st century.
The same site as you used, but I did not quote the KJV definition. There are two translations in your site, one labeled "Definition", and the other "King James Defnitinion". I used the first one, not the KJV one.
It's the KJV Greek lexicon and it's full of errors as is the KJV translation of the Bible.
Your quote included that arsenokoites means sodomites. That's already been shown to be wrong by translators correcting the incorrect use of the word "sodomites" to male temple prostitutes in several OT verses. If you bothered following the other links I gave, you'd see which versions that still have it translated incorrectly.
It's the KJV Greek lexicon and it's full of errors as is the KJV translation of the Bible.
Jay, it is obvious we are dealing with a homophobe here and presenting facts will not change his mind. He probably thinks I am "teh ebul ghey" even though I am straight and married 24 years with two kids 1st and only marriage and all that good stuff.
I suppose we can leave these woo woos to their self proclaimed righteousness and bigotry, their ilk and days are numbered, time marches on and mankind progresses, albeit slowly in the USA, from the dark ages.
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unless you're in prison of course.
