Top Catholic Cardinal: "Gays won't go to heaven" (punishment, God)
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Funny how you say that murder, theft and sexual immorality are condemned in the Bible. Apparently you have not read or that you do not understand that the god of the Bible is the biggest nurderer of all time (floods, diseases, plagues etc..) and he approved of sexual immorality as we can see how Lot impregnated his daughters and he was called a man after god's heart..As for the theft and destruction, I don't recall Jesus asking to borrow the mule, he just told his disciples to take it, and let's not forget the destruction of property as jesus killed a fig tree for not having fruits out of season or the killing of 40 some swine who may have belonged to somebody.
Dude, you need to take the beam out of your eye first and the followers of your faith should be the last to make comments about murder, theft and sexual immorality. And by the way, let me refer you to the song of Soleman which might save you some money on renting some XXX rated movies...
A soveign God who created man, can do with men as he wishes. You, like Lot's daughters, have free will to do as you wish, but your actions have concequences. Lot's daughters got Lot drunk and then had sex with him without him realizing what they were doing. Both got pregnant with sons, and the sons became fathers of significant tribes, but God cursed the tribes because of the actions of the daughters. The curse was not broken until the time of Betsheba.
I said Christ, not Paul. I am a Christian not a Paulian.
You make a good effort to change the subject. No one said Christ personally said it, but Paul and all authors of the Bible wrote with the authority of Christ and the Holy Spirit, so their word is as good as Christ's own. This is what Christians believe.
So, you are a pastor who refuses to accept the entire NT as the word of God, and who was unaware of the second covenant. No wonder you have no issues with homosexuality.
Well let's see..If I have a choice between heaven and hell, I'd look first at who resides where and who's company I would be with. In heaven, I'd be with a bunch of slow Sunday drivers; with people like Jeffry Dahmer who accepted Jesus and got "saved" and who is now walking hand in hand with the same victims that he ate; with Jerry Falwell who blamed 9/11 on homos and "disobedient women"; with those who hate music especially loud one; with those who refrained from eating from the fruit of knowledge and chose to remain dumb; with those who stoned their disobedient children etc...
Now in hell, I'd be with john Lennon and all the rock'n'rollers; I'd be with Darwin who told us that life is much older than the bible's story about 6000 years; I'd be with Galileo and Copernicus who told us that earth is not flat; I'd be with women who refused to keep silent as Paul suggests; I'd be with talented Gays like Sir Elton John who can rock the place etc...
It doesn't look like a hard choice to make , does it!
Copernicus was never in a bad position with the Church in life so far as I know. If deathbed conversions count Oscar Wilde could count so he could be in Heaven and gay!
We don't really know who's in heaven or not though. It's not a simple trick of "who claimed to be Christian on death." Dahmer could have been insincere or still had grave sins on his soul. For that matter even people we consider good may have really been selfish jerks. However it does seem people like John Lennon or Billie Holiday or George Carlin would be in Hell by conventional views. I can certainly see why this would be a problem for many people. Still even with them we don't know what happens.
Since your excuse for a soverign god is that he can do with men as he wishes, therefore he cannot be used as a standard for morality.
Like I said, you have your free will to ignore his laws. Even Lucifer had free will, and he made poor choises and paid the price, and will pay again.
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And since you mentioned Bethsheba, it's a good time to also mention David and his fornication with bethsheba; and how your murderous god punished David? well, he made the innocent baby sick for several days and then he killed him off!! Divine justice lmao
Yes, that is precisely what happend. David used his free will to have sex with a married woman, a Moabite of the cursed tribe, and he got her pregnant. And later he had her husband murdered. He violated God's law and God punished him by taking the baby. During the times of the first covenant sovereign God punished people and entire nations in many ways, and death was only one method. Moses didn't screw up too bad, but he was punished and never saw the promised land. But we live in the times of second covenant and there is no more punishment while we live. Free will is still here and the price for violations won't be paid until after death. Jesus was sent here to teach us about the moral standards, and you can read about them in the Bible. So, He was the moral standard.
Jesus saved everyone. Including the horrible people that got divorces. Remember divorce is punishable by death in the bible
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Indeed, it does mean that the homosexual catholic priests won't make it. That is a biblical truth. Homosexuals won't make it, and it doesn't matter what their profession was, a lawyer or priest. A sinner is a sinner, and they will not see kingdom of God.
Sorry, Barragan is an idiot and belongs to the dustbin of history.
If there is a heaven, I am sure the compassionate and giving will have lower queue numbers that bureacrats and those who are so quick to cast their stones.
It is obvious you know absolutely nothing about the bible, its history, the traditions etc. You are merely displaying your homophobia, you bigotry and the to be expected from your ilk, hatred for anyone who thinks, acts differently from you.
Firstly, you state that the OT law is no longer valid well then based on that supposition, your beliefs are in direct contradiction with the sayings of jesus. Did he not say that not one jot or tittle of the law would not pass away until all had been fulfilled? When was all fulfilled seeing you luv to cherry pick your scriptures? Thus if you want to condemn gays, you should equally condemn adultery, the prime cause for divorce amongst xians, they should be taken outside the city walls and stoned to death.
You have absolutely no inkling what the letter of divorce that moses gave was about do you? If a man chose, he could put his wife away meaning he just abandoned her, she was not able to remarry and she was not able to get a job like the women can today, she of course was a convenient breeding/sexual object. Unless her parents still lived she had no means of self support and would be forced to survive the only way she could, prostitution. The man however could remarry and nothing was said. The letter of divorce was a way to prevent this from happening. This ties in with the adulteress that jesus refused to condemn, where was the man?
There is enough evidence in reading between the lines that paul not only was a false apostle, self appointed etc. but likely the thorn in his side was was his being gay, he never married whereas the appointed apostles of jesus all were likely married.
There was a reason why jesus hung out with prostitutes and lepers, these were the folk that their own society had rejected and/or created, very similar to the way you xians are today, hateful, intolerant, self righteous and pious. Every time you lot want to justify your bigotry, you delve into the OT and cherry pick and then when challenged with your assertions of the bible being inerrant and we point out the stuff you so not do instructed by your never changing god, you tip-toe around the issue as you so aptly are doing here.
It is obvious that you have never read up on the church history or studied the texts in their original meanings as has been adequately displayed here already, you are merely regurgitating the same crap you have been taught all your life and heard spewed forth from you local pulpiteer aka dear leader aka pastor.
As for lucifer, he is NOT the satan you think he is, that is just the same ol' RC mistranslation you lot still follow. In fact if you did some study you would see that lucifer aka morning star is used describing jesus too. The word translated to lucifer in the Hebrew refers to howling and is only mistranslated once in the entire OT as this. You lot have accepted the so called merging of texts and the book of revelation which talks of a heavenly battle to come when satan is cast out and somehow have come to the wonderful conclusion satan was an arch angel at one time, the praise and worship leader of heaven that somehow developed free will to usurp god conned a third of the angels who also suddenly developed free will and was cast out of heaven, then this self same satan is referred to as a son of god who has regular conversations and meetings with your god, plays mind games poker with folk like Job with the blessings of your god and somehow we are to believe that any of this makes sense
Do yourself a favor and go study before you want to debate us heathen, your normal apologist sites will not help as they spew forth the same garbage as each other, your pastor probably does not know the truth either, it is the blind leading the blind. But be aware you are likely to end up on our side of the fence and most of us that did delve deeper into scriptures came away atheists. Most of us did not become atheists because the bible made sense, it is because it does not. It is not inerrant. Your unchanging god is one mean mf and schizophrenic to boot.
While homosexuality is natural, not the norm but natural nonetheless, nothing you bigots do or will do is going to make it go away. People do not choose their sexual orientation, they do however choose their sick religions.
If you disagree, then explain a hermaphrodite, one that is born with both sexes seeing your god creates everything perfect and all how do you not condemn them yet condemn gays?
I am straight and cannot choose to be attracted to another man, never was, never could, I am naturally heterosexual, likewise homosexuals cannot choose to be attracted to the opposite sex. Many have tried living a lie because of your church's bigotry and the archaic laws, look at your own gay basher Ted Haggard, turns out he is gay, so too is Ray Boltz, horror of horrors such a famous gospel singer a poofter
Now you go tell Ray Boltz he is a heathen scumbag.
How would you like it as a heterosexual if you were forced by society to live with another man?
Funny how the gay bashers and sin bashers all seem to turn out gay and/or fall from grace, Jimmy Swaggert comes to mind here. I could provide you oodles of lists of your own ilk that are like this have fallen, man you need only read the papers to see how sick the folk your side of the fence are, pastors having sex in their office with married women in their congregation and more than one at a time.
You want to cast stones, go clean up your own house first and leave the other humans alone.
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