Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
No, of course not. The Bible is the word of God, but it never claims anything for itself---in fact, it never even mentions itself. It is later readers with a certain religious agenda that have added the "infallible and literal" adjectives to the mix.
John 1:1-2 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God."
John 1:14-17 - "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’” And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (The word made flesh in Jesus)
John 17:17 - "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." (Spoken by Jesus as he was praying to God the Father for his disciples.)
2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,..."
Location: Comunistafornia, and working to get out ASAP!
1,962 posts, read 5,198,580 times
Reputation: 952
Tell me, when four people come to a four way stop do they all have the same perspective? Do they all see the same thing? The person to your right; do they have the point of sight you do? The person to your left; can they see the right side of your car? It is a lie and most ignorant to assume contradictions.
Tell me, when four people come to a four way stop do they all have the same perspective? Do they all see the same thing? The person to your right; do they have the point of sight you do? The person to your left; can they see the right side of your car? It is a lie and most ignorant to assume contradictions.
They probably don't all say the see the same thing.
But they're smart enough not to say "This is the absolute truth, and if you don't believe my take on the four-way stop, you're going to hell."
Anyone, or -thing, that asserts that it is the truth on which people's souls hinge, had BETTER be sure he's certain of his facts. If not...then don't write it down, filling in portions with guesses.
As far as the flood...I'm not sure the four-way stop compares. Either every single solitary soul on the entire planet, and every animal, except one pair each and only Noah's family, died within an extremely short period...or they did not. I don't see that there is more than one way to "see" that. "Well, everyone died." "Well, nobody died...but this is an allegorical book." "Well...two middle eastern countries were under water and that looked like the whole world." Somewhat more hinges on believing this as literal or not...don't you think? Since it all centers around and gives a moral of listening to God's word, what happens to people who don't (they all die en masse), and exact words of God's along with exact commands to Noah, etc.
Also, regarding "different perspectives," supposedly, only one person wrote the entirety of the first five books of the OT...correct? How many different perspectives can one person have? And how many different attitudes in the writing? "Let me write something allegorical. Now, something factual. Now, something based on facts but not historically accurate. Okay, now something based on a thing people thought might have happened, but let's insert some "God said this and that" in it. Okay. Let's get back to solid truth now..." If the first five books of the Bible, at least, and then the four gospels on the other hand, were a mix and match of stories and truth, then no part of the Bible can be assumed to be the truth, since no person can say for sure which was which...unless some of us here are presuming to know the mind of God. Any mix and match of story and truth is, well, a story. I can write a story about how I'm able to fly, and set it in modern-day Los Angeles and list Schwartzenegger and the governor and throw in some more facts. The end result is a story...not truth. Having a few facts thrown in as background does NOT make for a true story. Especially if I then proceed to list some "historical facts" that are inaccurate, without realizing it. That would pretty much be the nail on the coffin there--then even the history I was talking about couldn't be trusted.
ETA: To explain that thought better...because I don't know how clear it was the way I wrote it (very fast). What I mean to say is that if I told you a story as if it were true, and stated that it took place in 2007, and the war in Iraq was going on, and gas prices were well over the three and a half dollar mark, and it had just snowed up at Big Bear Mountain, AND I raised my arms and flew, you wouldn't be able to believe my story even though all the first facts were correct. The bold-faced lie at the end would cast doubt on *my entire story* from that point on, because if I could be wrong about that, what else might I be wrong about?
So the Bible can either be trusted as true...or it can't. With the errors or the margin of incredulity which many Christians themselves profess ("Well, of course a snake can't talk!"), I think "trusted as true" is out.
So then you trust it all, Mark? Because many times, the Bible states that it is literally the word of God.
Jeremiah 1:9: Then the Lord put forth His hand and touched my mouth, and the Lord said to me: "Behold, I have put My words in your mouth."
Jeremiah 26:2: Thus says the Lord: "Stand in the court of the Lord's house, and speak to all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the Lord's house, all the words that I command you to speak to them. Do not diminish a word."
Jeremiah: Thus speaks the Lord God of Israel, saying: "Write in a book for yourself all the words that I have spoken to you."
Jeremiah 36:4: Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah; and Baruch wrote on a scroll of a book, at the instruction of Jeremiah, all the words of the Lord which He had spoken to him.
Exodus 24:4: And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord. And he rose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
Exodus 34:27: Then the Lord said to Moses, "Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.''
Thessalonians 2:13: For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.
Do you all then believe literally that the OT and that the NT were direct words of God? Because if not, if you doubt any of it or think it's an allegory, then you doubt all of it. I have heard so many people say the Adam and Eve story might be "allegorical" but "still the truth". THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE DOES NOT SUPPORT THIS. AT ALL. It says it is THE LITERAL WORD OF GOD. If you doubt Adam and Eve, then your beliefs hang on literally nothing. Because if the Fall did not happen, then what do we need to be saved from? If Satan didn't tempt, then whose influence do we fight every day? If the Fall isn't true...then Christianity makes literally no sense at all, because then there is nothing to say we really are in need of salvation. And bringing it back to the Flood, same deal. God *spoke directly to* Noah *many many times* and this is supported AS LITERAL by the above scripture. Just a story that's "true in its general feeling but didn't actually happen". You're kidding me, this is what millions of people are hinging their daily lives and beliefs on and are preaching to other people???
Not for me. Trusted and true all the way, but hey, we'll all see in the end won't we.
Ah, the threats, the threats, always the threats. "Jesus is the lamb, and the prince of peace, and God loves us with an aching burning love we can't even imagine. WHAT? You don't believe me? Well then, just wait until you're dead. You'll probably be singing a different tune when this all-loving creator throws you into a pit and allows you to suffer and burn endlessly, for an eternity."
Fabulous. Yes, THAT'S the religion I want to hang MY star on.
Do you all then believe literally that the OT and that the NT were direct words of God? Because if not, if you doubt any of it or think it's an allegory, then [I
you doubt all of it.[/i] I have heard so many people say the Adam and Eve story might be "allegorical" but "still the truth". THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE DOES NOT SUPPORT THIS. AT ALL. It says it is THE LITERAL WORD OF GOD. If you doubt Adam and Eve, then your beliefs hang on literally nothing. Because if the Fall did not happen, then what do we need to be saved from? If Satan didn't tempt, then whose influence do we fight every day? If the Fall isn't true...then Christianity makes literally no sense at all, because then there is nothing to say we really are in need of salvation. And bringing it back to the Flood, same deal. God *spoke directly to* Noah *many many times* and this is supported AS LITERAL by the above scripture. Just a story that's "true in its general feeling but didn't actually happen". You're kidding me, this is what millions of people are hinging their daily lives and beliefs on and are preaching to other people???
I believe the Bible is the literal Word of God. I believe Adam and Eve were real. I believe all the stories in the Bible are real, because God is real to me.
I believe the Bible is the literal Word of God. I believe Adam and Eve were real. I believe all the stories in the Bible are real, because God is real to me.
JerZ knows the people who have sold out to Christ, ILNC. She's actually speaking words of truth into the lives of those who haven't.
I'm sitting here speechless right now. Quite literally....speechless. Mostly because she has a way of articulating her views and though we disagree from the 'spirit' in which those views originate, the message she says is so true.
Christians either believe what they say they believe or they don't.
Do you all then believe literally that the OT and that the NT were direct words of God? Because if not, if you doubt any of it or think it's an allegory, then you doubt all of it. I have heard so many people say the Adam and Eve story might be "allegorical" but "still the truth". THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE DOES NOT SUPPORT THIS. AT ALL. It says it is THE LITERAL WORD OF GOD. If you doubt Adam and Eve, then your beliefs hang on literally nothing. Because if the Fall did not happen, then what do we need to be saved from? If Satan didn't tempt, then whose influence do we fight every day? If the Fall isn't true...then Christianity makes literally no sense at all, because then there is nothing to say we really are in need of salvation. And bringing it back to the Flood, same deal. God *spoke directly to* Noah *many many times* and this is supported AS LITERAL by the above scripture. Just a story that's "true in its general feeling but didn't actually happen". You're kidding me, this is what millions of people are hinging their daily lives and beliefs on and are preaching to other people???
I believe the Bible, all 66 books, is the Word of God. I believe it is all truth. I believe different books of the Bible were written in different styles. For example, I believe Genesis is historical narrative, where I believe Psalms are poetry. You do not read and interpret poetry the same as historical narrative. They have to be read for what they are and interpreted within the proper context. We must study to ensure we are rightly dividing the Word (2 Timothy 2:15). A basic principle of Scriptural interpretation is that Scripture interprets Scripture. That is why I am confident in what I believe about, as an example, Genesis. It is consistent with the rest of Scripture.
Like I posted somewhere else -- the "days" in Genesis 1 are meant to be literal days because Genesis is historical narrative. Whereas, in 2nd Peter he uses a simile to explain how God is ouside time when he wrote "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." He was not giving a definition of the length of a day.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Noah's Ark
