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I don't think Rob has tried to confuse anyone, I think he is just interested in why people choose this religion or that religion.
Sorry, blue. I didnt mean any disrespect. It was a joke. I do feel he jumped the gun on that one...seemed a little TOO anxious to prove we've changed our views...heh heh.
Actually, kay, I'mhappy to see that Jehovah's Witnesses differ so greatly than other relgions. THe bible says the 'narrow and cramped is the road to life and few are the ones finding it'. This shows me that the vast majority of ones who THINK they are correct may find that they are not. Have you ever truly examined that doctrine... the trinity, I mean? Have you ever truly looked at the six or seven scriptures that churches use to prove Christ and God are one person and, after examining the context, thought about what they really mean...that Christ and God are in UNITY but not one being?
When you study the bible, you HAVE to determine whether it contradicts itself. If it does appear to, then you strongly need to research which fact resonates the most clearly...one person or two people. Then you look at the scriptures that seem to contradict that theme and reason on them.
The bible completely supports unity between father and son...but it does not support the idea that they are one person.
So no one was right between the church of Acts and when the JWs decided they were right.
That's never made sense to me, but then again, closely looking objectively at this whole topic tends to show the lack of sense in a lot of things.
I've addressed this before but I don't think it was on this thread. Since the early Christian Congregation 'oppressive wolves entered in' the congregation and caused a huge ammount of confusion, as history shows. This does not mean true witnesses of GOd did not exist, simply that they were unable to form a united body due to political pressures.
I'm sorry that you aren't finding any sense in this topic. I'm trying to make it as clear as possible. Looking back over my responses, I think they're very easy to understand.
By the way, Alpha, I read that link. It makes NO SENSE to me. You cannot pray to someone and be that person no matter what type of 'mystery' resides in the trinity doctrine. It's just not biblical to believe that. Look at the history of the doctrine, Alpha...when did it first get recognized and how much trouble was it in becoming established? Why did so many people refute it...church leaders, even?
Last edited by alicenevada; 06-25-2007 at 07:47 AM..
thru the years, i've had a few j.w. stop and knock at my door, they were very polite, and i give them credit for going door to door, id have a very difficult time doing this,
religion is a very personal issue (with me) i was baptised a catholic, but rarely go to church, but a firm believer in jesus/god
the two ladies that came to the door (jw) gave me some watchtower pamphlets, they actually werent too pushy and asked if i had any questions,,
i got on to politics,,,and asked thier views, and they politely excused themselves and left,
i have to say one of these ladies had the "glow" ive only seen this from a few christians,,they seem too good to be true, always smiling, has a pleasant answer for everything,, and too nice,,
I get that same feeling when I meet my brothers and sisters from far off places like at the convention I'm going to on Friday. 'Too good to be true' does seem an apt description...I believe that's God's Holy Spirit working in their lives and without that, it would not be possible.
By the way, Alpha, I read that link. It makes NO SENSE to me. You cannot pray to someone and be that person no matter what type of 'mystery' resides in the trinity doctrine. It's just not biblical to believe that. Look at the history of the doctrine, Alpha...when did it first get recognized and how much trouble was it in becoming established? Why did so many people refute it...church leaders, even?
Tell ya what, instead of looking at the history of doctrine, why don't you look at scripture? Links were provided in the text of the site I quoted to show that scriptures do put multiple attributes on Jesus. Sorry if the Watchtower disagrees or can't understand just how big and beyond our rationale God is, but it's there in the Word. Whether my doctrine or your doctrine agrees, the Word is the Word.
Actually, kay, I'mhappy to see that Jehovah's Witnesses differ so greatly than other relgions. THe bible says that 'narrow and cramped is the road to life and few are the ones finding it'. This shows me that the vast majority of ones who THINK they are correct may find that they are not. Have you ever truly examined that doctrine... the trinity, I mean? Have you ever truly looked at the six or seven scriptures that churches use to prove Christ and God are one person and, after examining the context, thought about what they really mean...that Christ and God are in UNITY but not one being?
When you study the bible, you HAVE to determine whether it contradicts itself. If it does appear to, then you strongly need to research which fact resonates the most clearly...one person or two people. Then you look at the scriptures that seem to contradict that theme and reason on them.
The bible completely supports unity between father and son...but it does not support the idea that they are one person.
Well, as Blue pointed out, the doctrine of the Trinity does not exactly mean that Christians believe that the Father and Jesus are one person. There's an old hymn, that kinda says it ,"God in three persons, blessed Trinity." They are absolutely one in essence and unity. And traditional Christianity does believe in the divinity of Jesus. But it is my understanding that Jehovah's Witnesses doctrine does not accept that Jesus is a Deity or God. Maybe I'm wrong on this... but I think there is obviously some difference in belief there.
I also would add that I do believe truth IS narrow. I think truth is one way, not many ways and so forth. But I think you do have to look closely at a doctrine when, studying the same book (in this case, the Bible) one group makes a radical departure from others in what they believe it says and claims that they are the only ones that have the truth now. (Especially in major areas of doctrine such as again, Jesus' divinity, salvation issues etc.)
Tell ya what, instead of looking at the history of doctrine, why don't you look at scripture? Links were provided in the text of the site I quoted to show that scriptures do put multiple attributes on Jesus. Sorry if the Watchtower disagrees or can't understand just how big and beyond our rationale God is, but it's there in the Word. Whether my doctrine or your doctrine agrees, the Word is the Word.
Edit: I'll never put doctrine above The Bible.
But Alpha, you ARE putting doctrine above the bible, don't you see? The scriptures you site that supposedly prove God and Jesus are one are flatly contradicted by ones that say they are seperate. The interesting this is, there is a valid explainable reason for EVERY SINGLE one that seems to make them one person but there are NO explanations for the ones that say they arent.
And please stop saying 'the watchtower', like that is who I am. I am me. And I, as a person, have decided the bible does not support the trinity. I became a Jehovah's Witness BECAUSE I don't believe in these things, not the other way around.
Well, as Blue pointed out, the doctrine of the Trinity does not exactly mean that Christians believe that the Father and Jesus are one person. There's an old hymn, that kinda says it ,"God in three persons, blessed Trinity." They are absolutely one in essence and unity. And traditional Christianity does believe in the divinity of Jesus. But it is my understanding that Jehovah's Witnesses doctrine does not accept that Jesus is a Deity or God. Maybe I'm wrong on this... but I think there is obviously some difference in belief there.
I also would add that I do believe truth IS narrow. I think truth is one way, not many ways and so forth. But I think you do have to look closely at a doctrine when, studying the same book (in this case, the Bible) one group makes a radical departure from others in what they believe it says and claims that they are the only ones that have the truth now. (Especially in major areas of doctrine such as again, Jesus' divinity, salvation issues etc.)
Well, that is why we always ask people at the door 'what do you think the trinity is'? Because many people DON'T agree w/ the Church description of the trinity as it was conceived inthe 4th century. We absolutely believe that Jesus and God are UNIFIED and that Jesus was definitely of devine origin and godlike. We do not belive he is the Almighty God and he never claims to be. There is the difference.
THe reason so many people become JW, Kay is because of that very thing that you mentioned, study of the bible. It isnt a radical departure from The Word. It is the way the early Christian Congregation believed and we do things as closely as possible to the way they did. Alot of people are very angry when they realize tht the Churches have been leading them along a path of tradition and doctrine that had no basis in the scriptures.
Lets talk for a minute about patriotism..I am so grateful and thank God that I live in a country that has fought so many battles and sacrificed so many lives in so many wars so that I can worship any way I please. I am really grateful that so many men and women are willing to give their lives for this cause, even if in the process they have to take a few. History has proven that no good battle is ever won without the shedding of blood. I am very grateful that during the draft years that everyone did not claim conscientious objector status and serve behind a desk or in a hospital where they were safe from harm. I wonder how many Jehovahs Witnesses volunteered to serve in the armed forces now that the draft does not exist. Not a question, Alice, (just a thought). I am sure that all those men and women who fought for your freedom, will not be cast aside by God and either sent to the fiery hell or the everlasting death, whichever a person believes. I could never live in this country and not feel an obligation to go to war and take up arms to protect your freedom to worship, or the freedom that so many lives have been given so that the Watchtower Society could set up their Headquarters in New York, not far from the U.N which they hate so much ( I will not comment on the Un at this point.) Mainly because I am not into predicting the end of time.
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Good point!!!