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One of the most telling things I've observed is the fact that evey kingdom hall I've ever seen has no windows. It's amazing to me when the natural testifies to the spiritual.
I had forgotten the flag thing, blue, thanks. I've also been amazed at the way JWs are so quick to call so many things (Christmas, birthdays, flags, crosses, etc) things that are idolized but then they hold the Watchtower Society in such high esteem. I guarantee you they hold the WTS higher than I hold a birthday.
Interesting facts, blue, what caused you to leave? How did it happen?
Alpha, I was really never a member..Will make a long story short..My husband was and still is Church of Christ (all his life) Some how the friendly witness befriended him at work in Dayton.Ohio where we lived at the time. We were still in our early thirties. Anyway, before we knew what hit us, we were involved in a Bible study for almost seven years..I rebelled inwardly and alone, because I just couldn't accept that stuff.(Having been in a Church that women were in subjection to their husbands in spiritual matters.) As the study developed, we got rid of our christian study books (they were burned)
They were all replaced by approved Watchtower books and pamphlets that we purchaced from the Watchtower Society, Birthday, Christmas, easter all holidays had to be given up.(Pagan Rituals) Finally we were invited to the kingdom hall, they were very nice to us. Then they said we had to start training for our door to door ministry, which would be every Tuesday. Then we bought more books telling good and acceptable answers to give and what to say to avoid the tough questions, and above all bre polite..Anyway, my husband finally returned to the Church of Christ. I made my mind up then that absolutely noone would ever come between me and my Lord again, that I would study the scripture and other books on my own. I did, now I am at peace with myselfDisclaimer: I respect Alice, for her interesting input to this forum, and in no way do I condemn her religion, It is hers, and she seems very happy in it.
Never mind . I put a tourniquet on her and took her to the hospital. She was a couple of pints of blood low, so they tested mine and it matched, so I gave her a direct transfusion and saved her life. Then we both thanked God for giving us the science of this lifesaving technique.
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishmom
Yup definitely the hospital!...but she's been bleeding a long time now...so I'm not sure it will help...LOL
<----passing Kawgpz a band aid now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62
Well, anyway Kawg is okay Aren't you...Kawg!!!
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Originally Posted by kaykay
I hope no one just reads part of of this thread and thinks something is wrong with Kawg!
Purely hypothetical, folks!
OMG (gosh or goodness, that is )...you all having me rolling and tears coming out of my eyes! I had NO idea that would draw so much humor...LMBO
I was actually just throwing it out to see where it led, as far as last minute or "bed side" salvation...but I was also curious about the blood issue...BUT, I am just glad to see I have so many friends on here willing to help me out!
JW's believe that the flag is pretty much an idol. That we worship it by saying the pledge and by showing respect for it..(I am speaking here with almost as much knowledge of the JW religion that Alice has}JW's children are usually sent to the hallway when the pledge is said at school , because the JW parents prefer that their children are not subjected to this "form of worship". Children cannot have birthday parties or attend them, because the only birthday party mentioned in the bible was King Herods . He was so pleased with the dancing girl, that he vowed to give her anything she wanted . Her mother who was the kings wife told her to ask for Johns head on a platter and Herod gave it to her.(Matther 14) So birthday parties are sinful . I know some more that JW's usually don't talk about during their ministering to "unbelievers".
I understand that you used to be associated with the Witnesses, blue (or were 'forced to be', as you put it) but I kind of wish you'd let me answer the questions because I feel your distance from the oranization has skewed your viewpoint somewhat. Some of the things above just aren't true.
The reason we do not pledge allegience to the flag is because our 'allegiance' is actually to God. To pledge that selfsame allegiance to a symbol is putting you under obligation to the country it represents and since we maintain Christian Neutrality, we cannot conscientiously do this. We also view it as tantamount to idolotry. Notice this comment from Encyclopoedia Britannica-'Early flags were almost purely of a religious character...in fact the aid of religion seems ever to have been sought to give sanctity to national flags, and the origin of many can be traced to a sacred banner." The early Christians did not take part in patriotic ceremonies according to history and we agree with them. However, we absolutely do show respect by standing during the pledge and remaining attentive throughout. We do not put our hand on our heart or say the pledge but I do not know of any children or adults who willingly leave the room during the saying of it. My own little boy stands quietly and respectfully at his school. I'm wondering if the children blue is speaking of were SENT out by their teacher because she didnt agree w/ their stand? That could very well be. My own son's teacher is very understanding.
Actually, concerning birthdays, TWO were mentioned in the bible. One was Pharoah's and one was Herod's. In both cases, horrible things happened to good people and we feel there is a reason these are the only two occasions of this sort mentioned in the bible and take the stand of the First Century Congregation by NOT celebrating the day of our birth. If you examine the history of birthday celebrations in reference books, the traditions associated with it are largely pagan. The later Hebrews actually felt that birthday celebrations were 'part of idolotrous worship, according to the common observances of the day' and showed far too much attention to the individual-(quote is from The Imperial Bible-Dictionary )
We will discuss anything you would like us to discuss, regardless of whether it is part of our 'ministering'. We aren't hiding anything and are very open about our stand.
Last edited by alicenevada; 06-23-2007 at 07:23 AM..
One of the most telling things I've observed is the fact that evey kingdom hall I've ever seen has no windows. It's amazing to me when the natural testifies to the spiritual.
I had forgotten the flag thing, blue, thanks. I've also been amazed at the way JWs are so quick to call so many things (Christmas, birthdays, flags, crosses, etc) things that are idolized but then they hold the Watchtower Society in such high esteem. I guarantee you they hold the WTS higher than I hold a birthday.
Interesting facts, blue, what caused you to leave? How did it happen?
Would you like to know why many of our halls don't have windows, Alpha? It's because in many parts of the earth, the only land that can be found at a reasonable price is in not-so-good areas and the windows tend to get broken by vandals. There are several in Memphis that DO have windows based on an old architectural plan but they have bars on them and still, they get broken. So the newer Kingdom Halls (and some of the economically designed older ones) do not have windows, usually. Keep in mind that our buildings are paid for by voluntary donations also and buildings without windows are just more practical. I personally feel tht windows are also a distraction, but that's just me. The inside of our halls are very well arranged and in most cases, quite beautiful. And the landscaping and parking lot are very nice and clean, are they not?
What leads you to believe that we idolize the Watchtower Society? I am a little shocked by that one. There is absolutely no idolotry that takes place anywhere in our worship and no men that receive undue praise to that effect. The Watchtower Society is simply our way of keeping thing organized, supplying literature for our preaching activity, and most of al-keeping track of our brothers and sisters all over the world.
Alpha, I was really never a member..Will make a long story short..My husband was and still is Church of Christ (all his life) Some how the friendly witness befriended him at work in Dayton.Ohio where we lived at the time. We were still in our early thirties. Anyway, before we knew what hit us, we were involved in a Bible study for almost seven years..I rebelled inwardly and alone, because I just couldn't accept that stuff.(Having been in a Church that women were in subjection to their husbands in spiritual matters.) As the study developed, we got rid of our christian study books (they were burned)
They were all replaced by approved Watchtower books and pamphlets that we purchaced from the Watchtower Society, Birthday, Christmas, easter all holidays had to be given up.(Pagan Rituals) Finally we were invited to the kingdom hall, they were very nice to us. Then they said we had to start training for our door to door ministry, which would be every Tuesday. Then we bought more books telling good and acceptable answers to give and what to say to avoid the tough questions, and above all bre polite..Anyway, my husband finally returned to the Church of Christ. I made my mind up then that absolutely noone would ever come between me and my Lord again, that I would study the scripture and other books on my own. I did, now I am at peace with myselfDisclaimer: I respect Alice, for her interesting input to this forum, and in no way do I condemn her religion, It is hers, and she seems very happy in it.
This is interesting. It sounds to me like you were pushed and that is sad. Some Witnesses do get 'over-zealous' when it comes to their bible studies and in some cases, the students do get overwhelmed with what seems to be 'expected' of them. The fact that you 'bought' these books shows me that it must have been some time ago that this all happened, as the donation arrangement has been in place since I was a child (I'm in my early 30's now).
But actually, it HAS to be the individual's own decision whether they decide to continue their study, go in the ministry, etc. They have to come to their own conclusion that it's the right thing to do and if they don't, then they don't become a Witness because obviously, it's not for them-such as in your case. There is one couple that has been coming to our KH for 20 years and they have never gone in the ministry or been baptized. They just don't want to. And no one cares whether they do or not. That's between them and Jehovah.
Last edited by alicenevada; 06-23-2007 at 07:26 AM..
Would you like to know why many of our halls don't have windows, Alpha? It's because in many parts of the earth, the only land that can be found at a reasonable price is in not-so-good areas and the windows tend to get broken by vandals. There are several in Memphis that DO have windows based on an old architectural plan but they have bars on them and still, they get broken. So the newer Kingdom Halls (and some of the economically designed older ones) do not have windows, usually. Keep in mind that our buildings are paid for by voluntary donations also and buildings without windows are just more practical. I personally feel tht windows are also a distraction, but that's just me. The inside of our halls are very well arranged and in most cases, quite beautiful. And the landscaping and parking lot are very nice and clean, are they not?
If you read my post, I said every kingdom hall I've ever seen has no windows. I'll stick to that since I haven't seen the old architecturally based ones you mention. Also, the buildings that I have seen actually have been built for windows, they just weren't set. Again, this is just a personal observation of mine and the spiritual symbolism there. This is just an opinion and an observation.
As far as locations go, the ones I know of and am speaking of are in fine locations.......geographically speaking of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
What leads you to believe that we idolize the Watchtower Society? I am a little shocked by that one. There is absolutely no idolotry that takes place anywhere in our worship and no men that receive undue praise to that effect. The Watchtower Society is simply our way of keeping thing organized, supplying literature for our preaching activity, and most of al-keeping track of our brothers and sisters all over the world.
First, you're gonna need to show me where I said you idolize the Watchtower. I didn't. What I said was that I guarantee you that JWs hold the WTS higher than I hold a birthday. Paul taught on special celebrations and food offered to idols etc and that only if you recognized the idol as some sort of power to compete with God, was it idolatry. You call birthday celebrations pagan events, at ours we give thanks to God the Father for the life being celebrated. We praise God and ask Him to empower us all to live the next year committed to Him and highly exalt the Kingdom of God and lift high the name of Jesus. We pray for guidance and for those that may not know the gift of eternal life which gives us the opportunity to celebrate a life that never ends. In short, it's a time of fellowship and worship. You wanna call that pagan, that's fine. Again, that way of thinking solidifies my opinions of that teaching.
So, again, what I am saying is that if I am idolizing or celebrating a pagan event with my Chirstmas or birthday celebration, based on what I know about JWs and the WTS, by the measure you use, it will be used on you.
If you read my post, I said every kingdom hall I've ever seen has no windows. I'll stick to that since I haven't seen the 'old' ones you mention. Also, the building that I have seen actually have been built for windows, they just weren't set. Again, this is just a personal observation of mine and the spiritual symbolism there. This is jusy an opinion and an observation.
As far as locations go, the ones I know of and am speaking of are in fine locations.......geographically speaking of course.
First, you're gonna need to show me where I said you idolize the Watchtower. I didn't. What I said was that I guarantee you that JWs hold the WTS higher than I hold a birthday. Paul taught on special celebrations and food offered to idols etc and that only if you recognized the idol as some sort of power to compete with God, was it idolatry. You call birthday celebrations pagan events, at ours we give thanks to God the Father for the life being celebrated. We praise God and ask Him to empower us all to live the next year committed to Him and highly exalt the Kingdom of God and lift high the name of Jesus. We pray for guidance and for those that may not know the gift of eternal life which gives us the opportunity to celebrate a life that never ends. In short, it's a time of fellowship and worship. You wanna call that pagan, that's fine. Again, that way of thinking solidifies my opinions of that teaching.
Spiritually, what does the absence of windows symbolize in your mind? I'm very curious. Do you think God's holy spirit can't get in or something??
I wasnt implying that land cannot be purchased in nicer areas, but because of the problem I mentioned-we share the same building plans and skip the windows. Remember, we build our buildings in many cases over the weekend and using the help and services of everyone, not just the skilled craftsman. We feel that due to our growth it is far more important to get the building up and serviceable than to focus on aethetics. Many countries have been waiting on a KH for over a year, meeting in the woods or in someone's yard until one can be provided. We're just happy to get them a building-windows or no.
I'm glad you don't place alot of emphasis on your birthday. I'm still not sure how that compares with the respect we show for the WTS. Christians must use their conscience when it comes to their involvement in pagan-oriented events. I don't judge anyone who chooses to celebrate the day of their birth but I choose not to based on my own knowledge of the traditions that go along with it. We thank Jehovah daily for our lives, however, and try to live as healthfully and responsibly as possible so as not to show him disrespect. I am certain he appreciates our feelings on the matter.
I am constantly calling to mind the scripture that states 'there is no sharing of light and darkness'. God did not excuse the nation of Israel when they took pagan customs and tried to clean them up by calling them 'a day for Jah'...he destroyed them immediately. Almost every 'religious' holiday or tradition in this country is rooted in those false religions. Can't you understand why I would not want to share in that?
So, again, what I am saying is that if I am idolizing or celebrating a pagan event with my Chirstmas or birthday celebration, based on what I know about JWs and the WTS, by the measure you use, it will be used on you.
And again, I'm afraid I have no clue how you can compare the organization we use to accomplish God's work to pagan holidays?
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Disclaimer: I respect Alice, for her interesting input to this forum, and in no way do I condemn her religion, It is hers, and she seems very happy in it.
)...you all having me rolling and tears coming out of my eyes! I had NO idea that would draw so much humor...LMBO 
There are several in Memphis that DO have windows based on an old architectural plan but they have bars on them and still, they get broken. So the newer Kingdom Halls (and some of the economically designed older ones) do not have windows, usually. Keep in mind that our buildings are paid for by voluntary donations also and buildings without windows are just more practical. I personally feel tht windows are also a distraction, but that's just me. The inside of our halls are very well arranged and in most cases, quite beautiful. And the landscaping and parking lot are very nice and clean, are they not?
