Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I dunno, PHX just seems kinda blah to me. Their downtown doesn't appear to be any more populated than ours, and while the numbers are a few years old, the articles I found about it say the same negging type things people say here about downtown Sacramento, and in terms of numbers the downtown PHX population seems even smaller (in 2014, about 90,000 people within 3 miles of downtown, while a 2013 report including Sacramento said we had more like 125,000 people within a similar radius of downtown Sacramento.) And at least from the numbers I can find for downtown itself, downtown Sacramento itself has a significantly higher population than downtown Phoenix (roughly 12,000 vs. about 7,000.) So they have swankier skyscrapers--yippee.
Regarding "up and coming," young folks have been saying that about Sacramento since more like 1895. It's just a booster sales pitch though. As to what it is we're supposed to be "up and coming" to, well, that's less clear. I guess I don't see Phoenix as a city that's somehow above Sacramento; maybe there's something I'm missing about them, but they don't seem to be that impressive. Just a sprawling Sun Belt city with a small, quiet downtown and a whoooooole lot of suburbs that people drive from to work in an office downtown and drive home; their light rail ridership is higher, but per capita it's lower than ours; PHX metro is about twice the population of Sac metro (4.7 million vs. 2.3 million) so, meh, technically they're bigger but it's not really about the size of your metro, it's what you do with it. We're doing some good stuff.
Regarding the events of the past year or so, doesn't seem that different from any other American city. I suppose cities like NYC or SF react differently to protests because they're used to being cities where people protest. But protests happen in every American city, riots happen in every American city. They have always happened in Sacramento--to bust out the history facts, some of the most pivotal events in this city's history were riots and protests, like the Squatter's Riot, the Pullman Strike, cannery strikes and protests in the 1930s, the Father's Day Riots in Oak Park in the 1960s, protests of the Gulf War and the WTO in the 1990s/2000s, or Occupy and Black Lives Matter in the 2010s. People dropping offhand comments about Sacramento being a "sleepy political cowtown" seem a little ridiculous when protests and demonstrations large and small are such a prominent part of downtown life. And as in other cities, reports that downtown is some sort of burnt-out shell are downright ludicrous; in similar cities (even ones with better marketing campaigns) like Portland, protests framed as devastating all of downtown were generally focused on a small 2-3 block area, just as they are in downtown Sacramento.
I'm sure that some folks who refuse to go downtown until it's as bucolic as the suburbs might find it scary, but that's part of what you get in a city: a high degree of vibrant and active civic engagement. And what's even more exciting is that some of the organizers and leaders of this activist community, despite a distinct lack of money and support from the powers-that-be, are emerging as the city's new civic leaders, journalists, and interest groups. And despite Chimerique's grim outlook about downtown, Midtown is a much more resilient neighborhood (because of our higher population density and the strong communities we have) and things seem, if not back to "normal," definitely alive these days. New businesses (local and chain) have opened up, every restaurant has outdoor seating and lots of people dining, and there are a lot of open-air craft fairs and vendor events, both formal and informal, popping up on sidewalks and parking lots. People in the local creative community aren't quite reopening yet, but they're making plans to reopen, booking gigs and preparing work for post-pandemic parties and festivals. The folks who get scared about riots will miss out on this element of civic life, as they always have, but plenty of us are happy to enjoy it in their absence.
While there are still plenty of challenges ahead, there's lots to be optimistic about. It feels like our soul is returning--we're not sleepy, we're wide awake! And complaints about how some neighborhoods are gentrifying too slowly for some folks' taste are music to my ears. It means neighborhoods rising up to demand their voices be heard, and prioritizing people over property values. And while property values are going up, the people are rising too.
The problem with Sacramento leaders, consultants, and influencers is so few of them have actually spent any recent quality time in other downtowns/inner cores that were in the last several decades of similar size and scale of Sacramento. Downtowns like Phoenix, Portland, Austin, Denver, Nashville, Kansas City, Orlando. Downtowns that now are larger with better economies, and are more vibrant, and dense than Sacramentos downtown.
Sacramento leaders, consultants, and influencers really don't know how far behind they really are. They still use old models and ideologies, dwelling on the past while the nations other mid-size downtowns flourish.
For example, 20 years ago, Sacramento influencers talked about building a cover deck over the I-5 freeway downtown so that we could connect Old Sacramento and the Riverfront with the rest of the downtown. Parks and urban space would sit on top of the deck. There was talk, only talk, of course, nothing happened. More recently the mayor had a big campaign about building a better waterfront on the Sacramento River, nothing happened except for a blue sign that says "Waterfront" on it.
Guess who built a fabulous freeway cover deck over their downtown - Phoenix! Downtown Phoenix's freeway cover deck is almost a mile long covering I-10. It has clean parks, playgrounds, live theatre nearby, and museums with a fabulous large traditional Japanese Friendship Tea Garden that is a big tourist attraction and other attributes within a block or two of a light rail station.
The Phoenix neighborhood surrounding the freeway cover deck is vibrant with low density and high density housing and well served by light rail.
Looking at goggle maps only gets you so far...you need to actually see the place and walk around it. Not just read about it in books and articles.
Sacramento still has not connected the waterfront and Old Sacramento with the rest of its downtown via a cover deck over I-5. Besides Phoenix, Dallas, Boston, Seattle, Portland all got it done...and other cities. Wake up Sacramento.
SGCT - Sleepy Government Cow Town - Unfortunately, some of Sacramento leaders and a few of its influencers still think and act as if Sacramento was an SGCT.
Looks like the Papago Freeway tunnel was built like 1979-1990. It seems very nice, but it's not anywhere near Phoenix's waterfront--that's on the other side of downtown Phoenix, and there is most definitely still an elevated freeway, I-17, located in between the Salt River and downtown Phoenix. And along this mighty riverfront, the city of Phoenix has a clearly vibrant set of urban amenities along this beautiful natural waterway, including...the regional In-N-Out Burger distribution center, and the Rio Salado Landfill.
Yes, some of our influencers and boosters still think and act as if Sacramento was a sleepy government cow town. One of them is named "Chimerique."
The Phoenix fabulous freeway deck with its urban park is over the I-10 freeway, Margaret T. Hance Park.
Chimerique is neither a Sacramento leader, nor influencer, in fact, she doesn't even live in downtown Sac full time any more. But she still loves the Sacramento area over Phoenix.
The Sacramento Sleepy Gov't Cow Town (SGCT) person comes in all different shapes, sizes, colors, and persuasions. Some don't even know or think they are of the tribe. But we still love them all.
Sacramento feels lacking in that regard. You know you are in a Tier 3 metro when you have "boots on the ground". Not that there is anything wrong with that per se, but Sac has the potential to be a higher tier if they do something with dysfunctional public transit and increase housing downtown.
Hey Valley Boy, I missed this comment: "You know you are in a Tier 3 metro when you have "boots on the ground".
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, care to elaborate?
Hey Valley Boy, I missed this comment: "You know you are in a Tier 3 metro when you have "boots on the ground".
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, care to elaborate?
I mean if feels like a 3rd-rate city/metro. First rate is Boston, NYC, Philly, DC, Atlanta, Miami, Chicago, Detroit, Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, Seattle, SF, LA
Then 2nd rate is more like your Portland, San Diego, Austin, Denver, Minneapolis, St, Louis, Orlando
Now 3rd rate, is more Sacramento, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, NOLA, Tampa, Nashville, , Cincinnati, Cleveland, Columbus, Milwaukee, Pittsburg, San Antonio, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Charlotte, Baltimore, Raleigh-Durham
And 4th rate, now you are talking Fresno, Albuquerque, OKC, Omaha, Providence, Des Moines, Memphis, Jacksonville, Louisville, Buffalo
Sorry, but it's all in the pulse of a metro. What kind of things they got going on, how many people travel for business or leisure, the level of commerce happening. Sacramento is not as happening as say, San Diego. But it's got a whole lot more going on than Fresno.
Valley Boy: What exactly makes Phoenix a "first rate" metro in the same category as LA or Chicago? Half a mile of covered freeway at the edge of downtown? A light rail line that started running 20 years after Sacramento? An NBA team that Kevin Johnson played for once?
I mean if feels like a 3rd-rate city/metro. First rate is Boston, NYC, Philly, DC, Atlanta, Miami, Chicago, Detroit, Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, Seattle, SF, LA
Then 2nd rate is more like your Portland, San Diego, Austin, Denver, Minneapolis, St, Louis, Orlando
Now 3rd rate, is more Sacramento, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, NOLA, Tampa, Nashville, , Cincinnati, Cleveland, Columbus, Milwaukee, Pittsburg, San Antonio, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Charlotte, Baltimore, Raleigh-Durham
And 4th rate, now you are talking Fresno, Albuquerque, OKC, Omaha, Providence, Des Moines, Memphis, Jacksonville, Louisville, Buffalo
Sorry, but it's all in the pulse of a metro. What kind of things they got going on, how many people travel for business or leisure, the level of commerce happening. Sacramento is not as happening as say, San Diego. But it's got a whole lot more going on than Fresno.
Thats cool thanks for the response. But, I was referring to "boots on the ground", ok, I get it, You mean, literally, how it feels walking around, the vibrancy on the streets, in the neighborhoods, hanging out at large public spaces like Capital Park and Old Sacramento, how it feels, the vibrancy compared to other cities, correct?
I travel a lot and I've to been to many cities/metros across the nation and I'm always comparing them with Sacto. Sacramento has so much unrealized potential, but there lies this systemic, dogmatic, governmental, closed and dismissive leadership-society that doesn't even realize how closed minded they are. Or, maybe they DO know how closed-minded they are, but they don't care, and will not let other contrary voices to be heard. Admittedly, I am part of that tribe, but I wish we could mix it up a little and allow for other diverse and truly more open-minded voices and leadership to prevail. I am sure we could get a lot more done.
Sacramento has come a long way, and yes it is way more vibrant and interesting than Fresno in many ways.
I think Sacramento is in a tier all its own, not quite a Portland, Austin, San Diego, or Phoenix; not even a Kansas City or Orlando in certain metrics, but Sacramento is actually quite unique, and it could be so much more if our leaders and its citizens allowed it.
You know I'm only a Sacramento critic when talking to its leaders and influencers.
Valley Boy: What exactly makes Phoenix a "first rate" metro in the same category as LA or Chicago? Half a mile of covered freeway at the edge of downtown? A light rail line that started running 20 years after Sacramento? An NBA team that Kevin Johnson played for once?
Well, if you actually went there and spent some quality time there you would know. Here's a few others places with a sense of place, vibrancy and density superior to Sacramento: Nashville, Austin, Portland, Kansas City, Orlando.
Sacramento's light rail was one of the first late 20th century light rails to return to their cities in 1985. The first was San Diego's, shortly thereafter Portland, then Sacramento.
So how is it that Phoenix's light rail which started 25 years later is by far superior. It connects suburbs with 50 times more high density, TOD locations, with Phoenix's downtown and with an awesome fast dedicated airport train to all of PHX's airport terminals. Phoenix's light rail goes on to huge areas of suburban high tech office parks connecting with another downtown and a huge university, Tempe-Arizona State University, which is very dense and vibrant by Sacto metrics.
So it's a secret that can't be told in words? That seems a little suspect to me. How does one measure or quantify "vibrant"? How do you measure "sense of place"? Both of those are highly subjective, and pretty hard to measure which city has more "sense of place" than any other. These aren't metrics, they're feelings. It's just fine if you like Phoenix better than Sacramento, but don't try to turn how you feel about a city into an objective measurement.
I'm also really suspicious of your use of the word "density" because every single one of the cities you mentioned has a lower population density than Sacramento. Only Portland comes close (just under 5000 people per square mile, we're a bit over 5000), the rest have like half of Sacramento's density or lower. And that's taking into account Portland's fairly heroic (if not entirely successful) measures to limit sprawl, with the end result of almost being as dense as Sacramento.
Phoenix's light rail has lower per capita ridership than Sacramento's by a considerable margin, even if it goes to the airport.
I suppose there are some things to like about Phoenix: like Sacramento and Austin, they are government towns, with a council-manager government structure instead of the more corruption-prone authoritarian "strong mayor" form.
But I really want to hear why Phoenix deserves to mention in Valley Boy's "first tier" of American cities. Is it just a measure of population?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
