The People Lost, the MPO Won (Houston, San Antonio: public school, moving, license plates)

[Ms. 01 Snake]

Originally Posted by RGJ

I really don't think it was the builder's or developer's responsibility to take care of 281 or Blanco Rd. The city, county and state should have seen the problem coming long ago. But then, they should have seen the problem with the intersections of 410/IH 37 and 1604/281. They waited too long and the more they waited, the costlier it got to fix the problem. Now we can all enjoy the 100' overpasses.....

No doubt. So, my question is what you all you opposed to the toll roads think we should do to fix it? I mean lets face it there is no money according to the City so what do we do?

The traffic is affecting housing prices as in they are not selling because of the traffic issues. I wouldn't choose to move here now with this traffic. I think you need to experience it to appreciate it.

[RGJ]

I think it's always strange that somehow the city, county, state and federal gov't can come up with the money for the projects those in charge want to complete. It's been obvious TxDot never wanted to fix 281 without a toll road. As an example, I sincerely believe they didn't coordinate the traffic signals so that the traffic problem would be worse and they could prove their point.

[mmac12]

Originally Posted by RGJ

I think it's always strange that somehow the city, county, state and federal gov't can come up with the money for the projects those in charge want to complete. It's been obvious TxDot never wanted to fix 281 without a toll road. As an example, I sincerely believe they didn't coordinate the traffic signals so that the traffic problem would be worse and they could prove their point.

You are soooo right.... I have said that from the beginning if they would just coordinate the lights better the traffic would flow much better. Once you drive past Overlook Pkwy the roads free up why - No Lights!

[Dopo]

Originally Posted by RGJ

I think it's always strange that somehow the city, county, state and federal gov't can come up with the money for the projects those in charge want to complete. It's been obvious TxDot never wanted to fix 281 without a toll road. As an example, I sincerely believe they didn't coordinate the traffic signals so that the traffic problem would be worse and they could prove their point.

I've been up there only twice, and I noticed that right away.
It's ridicoulous that the light is on for the 281 just as long as it's on for the streets that cross the highway.

Here's an idea... synchronize the lights and leave them on as long as is needed to get the traffic on 281 to flow.
The people on Evans and Stone Oak can wait or go a different way.

I've seen lights just like those in 100s of places.
The highway gets the green light for about 5-10 minutes and the roads that cross them get the green light for less than 1-2 minutes.

[goodmanm]

Originally Posted by dvlpr

So you're claiming that TXDOT utilized the monies it had collected for other pet projects? Which ones?

I think I read somewhere that the projects were proposed but never funded.

Originally Posted by Ms. 01 Snake

We also live in TWP and I would pay 100 a week if it meant I didn't have to waste 2 to 3 hours a day in traffic just trying to get to and from 1604 (it is less than 7 miles from our house).

I mean the city planners have done a really bad job out here-sure Mr. builder go ahead and build a 1000 + homes but, no change in the roads. It has become a nightmare out here over the last 5 years.

This city has the worst infrastructure of any "big city" I have ever been to and I have been to them all. Most cities do have a toll road system for those that choose to use them. I will gladly choose to drive on it and save myself some time in the car. I just don't know what I will do with the extra hour I have to plan into my morning just for Blanco or 281.

I get the impression that the city has little control over what the developers build, can't violate their property rights!

Originally Posted by Ms. 01 Snake

No doubt. So, my question is what you all you opposed to the toll roads think we should do to fix it? I mean lets face it there is no money according to the City so what do we do?

The traffic is affecting housing prices as in they are not selling because of the traffic issues. I wouldn't choose to move here now with this traffic. I think you need to experience it to appreciate it.

Is traffic affecting housing prices? I think we would have heard something in the local news if it was. Traffic here is nothing compared to Washington D.C.

[RGJ]

Most of the areas north of 1604 were originally outside city limits, hence no city control except whatever is allowed under their ETJ. Originally Timberwood Park was started 30-40 yrs ago. Stone Oak 20-25 yrs+ maybe?

[Ms. 01 Snake]

Originally Posted by goodmanm

I think I read somewhere that the projects were proposed but never funded.



I get the impression that the city has little control over what the developers build, can't violate their property rights!



Is traffic affecting housing prices? I think we would have heard something in the local news if it was. Traffic here is nothing compared to Washington D.C.

Let me put it to you like this...if you know you will have to add an hour each way to your day would you move out here? I can tell if I had know that this is what was going to happen out here, we would not have moved.

I guarantee you that some avoid this area because of the traffic issues.

[Mom2Feebs]

Originally Posted by Ms. 01 Snake

Let me put it to you like this...if you know you will have to add an hour each way to your day would you move out here? I can tell if I had know that this is what was going to happen out here, we would not have moved.

I guarantee you that some avoid this area because of the traffic issues.

That depends on what your perception of "traffic issues" are. People coming from other areas may not think twice about a 40-45 min drive from Stone Oak to downtown, especially if they are from a place that has an hour + commute.

[TexHwyMan]

Originally Posted by wc2005

Money was designated in years past to build overpasses and thus eliminate traffic lights on the main corridor but that money was siphoned off to be used on other things, not necessarily related to roads or traffic at all.

Not so. There was money budgeted for 281, but when the edict came down from Austin to build 281 as a toll road, the money that had been set aside was shifted to other road projects in Bexar County. What you're thinking of is the diversions that occur long before the money gets to the local level.

Both 281 and 1604 on the west side could be greatly helped just by adding some overpasses. Look at 281 inside 1604.

I love it when people say that, like it's some sort of revelation. TxDOT knows that's the solution; the issue is how to pay for those overpasses. The gas tax is no longer providing the revenue stream that's needed to fund these types of projects. The reason for that is three-fold:

• The Legislature has not raised the gas tax since 1991. Inflation therefore has eaten away a substantial amount of it.
• Better MPG vehicles use less gas, thus lower gas tax revenues per mile while still having to build and maintain more roads to support those vehicles.
• The Legislature has siphoned off money from the Highway Fund every year to pay for things like DPS. Plus, the state's constitution allocates 25% of the gas tax to public schools.

Originally Posted by RGJ

The city, county and state should have seen the problem coming long ago.

They do see these issues coming. TxDOT has all sorts of plans on the books for the future. For instance, they have long-range plans for an expressway on SH 211 because they know that growth is headed that way. So it's not a lack of planning for these things; it's a lack of timely funding. There are only so many dollars to go around.

Originally Posted by RGJ

It's been obvious TxDot never wanted to fix 281 without a toll road.

Not true. Plans were on the books in 1999 to build a toll-free expressway. While the project was waiting for funding, the edict came down from Austin to toll all expressway projects that were in the pipe.

As an example, I sincerely believe they didn't coordinate the traffic signals so that the traffic problem would be worse and they could prove their point.

Originally Posted by mmac12

You are soooo right.... I have said that from the beginning if they would just coordinate the lights better the traffic would flow much better.

That's a commonly held belief, but traffic signal coordination is not always the magic bullet the public believes it to be. When traffic volumes get heavy, synchronization is not enough to keep things moving. The reason is because synchronization relies on having platoons of vehicles with gaps between them. The gaps are used to allow green time for the side streets. But if too much traffic comes in from the side streets, they fill in the gaps between the platoons and start queuing-up at the next downstream signal. Then the through traffic from upstream piles in behind them and the progression breaks. That's what happens on 281, on 1604, and on Bandera.

BTW, the City of San Antonio is responsible for the signals on 281 south of Marshall, not TxDOT.

Once you drive past Overlook Pkwy the roads free up why - No Lights!

Nobody's arguing that the traffic lights are part of the problem. The Super Street will help in that regard.

Originally Posted by Dopo

Here's an idea... synchronize the lights and leave them on as long as is needed to get the traffic on 281 to flow.
The people on Evans and Stone Oak can wait or go a different way.

You can't do that. Those folks have just as much right to have reasonable access to 281-- they pay their taxes, too.

I've seen lights just like those in 100s of places.
The highway gets the green light for about 5-10 minutes and the roads that cross them get the green light for less than 1-2 minutes.

No traffic signal will stay red for 5 minutes if there are cars waiting. Anything longer than about 2-3 minutes starts to cause drivers to disobey the signal, which is a safety hazard. I'll pull out the federal traffic manual tomorrow and see what the max red time allowed is, but I'm quite sure it's less than 5 minutes.

Originally Posted by SAAggiemom

Had the toll plan been lifted, the stimulus funding would NOT have been lost as had been reported in the Express news and by other pro-toll sources.

This is because they changed their proposal in the past week. The original proposal would have jeopardized stimulus funds because of how they were moving the money around. They tweaked their plan to eliminate that.

The plan is for a total of 20 lanes (Marble Falls must be a hot destination)

This is misinformation. The bulk of both plans (toll and non-toll) would be 10-12 lanes, which includes the expressway lanes and frontage road lanes. The 20 lane figure is the abolute widest point between Redland and 1604 and includes expressway lanes, frontage road lanes, auxilary lanes connecting to the 1604 ramps, the lanes on the 1604 ramps themselves, and at Redland includes lanes on two frontage road flyovers (like those at 410 and San Pedro.) It is important to note that the toll-free plan would have a similar layout at 1604; the last toll-free plan I saw had 18 lanes in that area.

What I think many people don't understand is that the toll plan and the tax plan both have the same cross-section for the majority of the corridor: 4-6 frontage road lanes and 6-8 expressway lanes. It's only at the 1604 interchange approach that extra lanes are added, just as they are at most other freeway interchanges. I have a page that shows both cross-sections from engineering plans; DM me if you want the link.


I'll close with this: Tommy's plan lost because they had no engineering reports to back-up their cost assertions. So the MPO board couldn't make an educated decision. Tommy pushed a vote, so those on the board who had some common sense decided not to approve a plan that wasn't vetted.

Monday's vote doesn't guarantee tolls on 281 or 1604; it just keeps the option on the table. Nothing can be decided until the environmental study is done in 3 years or so. And if alternate funding is found to do it toll-free, then the MPO and ARMA will do so. They've already proved this with the 281/1604 interchange: the ramps to be built with stimulus funds were originally proposed to be tolled. When the stimulus funds came along, ARMA and the MPO worked to get those funds so they could build them toll-free.

[RGJ]

TexHwyMan....Thanks for the info and corrections.