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You make a good point as well...unfortunately after 22 years in the military, 2 in law enforcement, and now back with the Gov't...I can tell you--you get what you pay for. To many folks think they are going to engage in some sort of 'range-like' scenario. If you are not shooting-moving-and communicating...you're dead.
Here's my thoughts and you can take them or leave them as you want.
First, I think the idea that bad guys are intimidated by the sound of a pump shotgun is pretty much an urban myth. The truth of the matter is that many of these guys are hopped up on drugs and really don't care if you have a firearm or not...they want to kill you or rape you and that's that. If that's the case and he's in your home already, you need to put a round in him as soon as possible after identifying the subject. That means keeping the shotgun with one up the tube and safety on. Still on the subject of shotguns, a 12 ga. is much better than a 20. Many more loads, including non-lethal self defense loads are available. If the shotgun's stock is correctly sized for you, the recoil will not be that bad.
Second, many of the really small pistols are very hard on the hand, even with small calibers. If you have small hands, you really need to take that into consideration. People will say, "well, in a real life situation, you won't notice the recoil." That may be true, but you have to put many rounds down range to get proficient with the gun and if you become recoil-shy, you won't practice with it.
Mac muz has pretty much said enough about the tomcat. I would add the Walther ppk to the list to avoid. I've fired one and the recoil is heavy for such a small caliber, simply due to the design of the grip and recoil system. Much better in the .380 is the Sig P232.
My suggestion for a gun would be either a small S&W snubnose or the Ruger SP101. The SP101 is a bit on the heavy side, but is small and will handle a .357 so is strong as can be.
I would also suggest Crimson Trace laser sights (not sites!). If you are in the dark, trying to line up sights on a target is really hard, even with tritium. The laser gives you a spot to shoot. I disagree that it will take too much time to line up the laser. It's at least as fast as trying to find your sights in the dark.
As others have said, attitude is very important, more than the weapon.
My best half isn't either, this isn't a laser, the sites are green and they work really well. I am not a fan of laser sites, by the time you try to light up your target, he/she has found you and chances are you are dead.
Somehow I think the folks at Crimson Trace, who integrate their product into the grip, might disagree.
They have a purpose and are quite good as a training aid. Are they for everyone, no. However, those with aging eyes who find it difficult to get a consistent focus on the front sight due to bifocals, darkness, etc... , seem to find them of utility even if they decried them in their younger years.
Here's my thoughts and you can take them or leave them as you want.
First, I think the idea that bad guys are intimidated by the sound of a pump shotgun is pretty much an urban myth. The truth of the matter is that many of these guys are hopped up on drugs and really don't care if you have a firearm or not...they want to kill you or rape you and that's that. If that's the case and he's in your home already, you need to put a round in him as soon as possible after identifying the subject. That means keeping the shotgun with one up the tube and safety on. Still on the subject of shotguns, a 12 ga. is much better than a 20. Many more loads, including non-lethal self defense loads are available. If the shotgun's stock is correctly sized for you, the recoil will not be that bad.
Second, many of the really small pistols are very hard on the hand, even with small calibers. If you have small hands, you really need to take that into consideration. People will say, "well, in a real life situation, you won't notice the recoil." That may be true, but you have to put many rounds down range to get proficient with the gun and if you become recoil-shy, you won't practice with it.
Mac muz has pretty much said enough about the tomcat. I would add the Walther ppk to the list to avoid. I've fired one and the recoil is heavy for such a small caliber, simply due to the design of the grip and recoil system. Much better in the .380 is the Sig P232.
My suggestion for a gun would be either a small S&W snubnose or the Ruger SP101. The SP101 is a bit on the heavy side, but is small and will handle a .357 so is strong as can be.
I would also suggest Crimson Trace laser sights (not sites!). If you are in the dark, trying to line up sights on a target is really hard, even with tritium. The laser gives you a spot to shoot. I disagree that it will take too much time to line up the laser. It's at least as fast as trying to find your sights in the dark.
As others have said, attitude is very important, more than the weapon.
I agree, J-frame snubbies are no fun at all with which to train and put hundreds of rounds downrange in a practice session. However, I find your written contradiction with the recommendation (in bold) a bit confusing.
I've been browsing this forum, some very interesting and helpful discussion!
I live on a quiet, semi-rural dead-end street on a very large fenced lot. It is well-lit by the township, but quiet and I have no immediate neighbors. I am a single, small, middle-aged woman with three dogs; two large scary-looking ones, and one smaller noisy one. They are house dogs, they have the run of the property but are inside with me at night, or when I'm not home.
I do all the common-sense things like keep the house locked and secure, have porch light and back yard motion-detector floodlight, I know my neighbors (we watch out for each other.) One neighbor has a house key and will come over and let my dogs out if I have to work late.
However I live just north of one of the most high-crime cities in the country and recently there have been problems; crime has skyrocketed. One neighbor had his house broken into one night recently and stuff stolen. I figured, won't happen to me - the cowardly little thugs aren't going to even try, with the dogs inside. However, last week an elderly man who lives down the end of my road was sitting watching TV and was shot THROUGH HIS FRONT WINDOW. One bullet went through his cheek and took off part of his nose, another hit him in the arm. He bailed out the back door and ran to the neighbors who called the cops, they never found the guys, he didn't even see them.
So, suddenly, I am feeling vulnerable. If the little ****es are willing to fire multiple times through a window, the dogs aren't much of a deterrent. Plus I don't want them harmed. I went to a party and came home very late one night last week and felt really nervous...all I had was a can of (don't laugh) foaming wasp spray to defend myself with between my driveway and my front door. I refuse to ask friends of neighbors for an escort after dark, and refuse to feel vulnerable in my own home.
I have never fired a handgun. I have fired M16s in the Navy Reserves, ages ago, and an ex-boyfriend was a serious collector so I got to play with automatic weapons a lot on the range. But other than that I am clueless. I am thinking a 9 mm handgun? I don't want something wimpy...if God forbid I ever really need to point a firearm at a human being, I want it to be reliable and do damage. I also want to be able to carry it easily.
What's my best option? I'm going to call a couple of local ranges and find out about training and to see if they rent guns...I live in a restrictive state and have to jump through hoops to be legally armed (which is my intent.)
Recommendations? Browsing gun forums and online gun stores is a bit overwhelming.
That is probably the #1 choice for a woman. It has decent power with 115 grain JHP+P or 124 grain JHP+P. COR-BON, Winchester SXT, Federal Hydra-Shok or Speer Gold Dots. I would rate the COR-BON and Gold Dots as the best. You need to test them in your handgun of choice first though. Accuracy and reliability can be a concern in "SOME" handguns. Handguns I would recommend a GLOCK 19 as the #1 choice for you. It's affordable, it is very reliable, and it's easy to shoot. You have 15 rounds in the magazine and 1 in the chamber. That's 16 rounds total in a fairly small semi-auto. You have one trigger pull to learn. Get it with night sights or have them installed. I'd only buy a 3rd Gen as well. The 4th Gens haven't been out that long and need some adjustments. Don't let a salesman sell you a 4th Gen. Buy the 3rd or buy something else. Second choice would be a Sig Sauer P-228, P-229 or P-229R in 9MM. The P-228 is discontinued for civilians, but many used and "SPECIAL" run new ones are available. The certified preowned ones in the red box are available and will cost you even less. I prefer NEW and used along with West German. The certified preowned has a different finish on the frame as a factory anodized black does. The slide is NITRON on both, so no worries there. The DuraCoat or Sharpie marker (as a frequent joke) LOL, or whatever they use on CERTIFIED PREOWNED doesn't hold up very well. You also can find West German made still NIB if you look hard enough. The P-229R is current production and P-229 is discontinued for civilians. The difference is "R" stands for light rail. As in a Streamlight M3 or the like will slide right onto the frame and lock in place. Both have a capacity of 13 rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber with factory magazines. You can get MEC-GAR + capacity flush fits for it as well. They make Sigs and about 50 other manufactures magazines anyway. You just don't have the trademark SIG-SAUER stamped on the side, hence the lower price for no license fees . Those are 15 in the magazine and 1 in the chamber. I'd also recommend The Smith & Wesson M&P series and also the Springfield XD series of 9MM's. Beretta 92FS and M9's are very nice but probably too large for a gal to carry concealed. A husky dude has trouble concealing one and cause you have a dainty womanly figure LOL it will be harder! LOL I would also recommend CZ-75B or SP-01 but you will run into the same concealment problems as a Beretta. Those are your best bets and if you tend to carry it less, you should look into the latter suggestions as well. They are excellent weapons, just a little harder to carry. Most importantly, stay with the 9MM. I think you will find it very controllable and is cheap to shoot. Factory Winchester goes for about $23 per 100 at places like WAL-MART and Federal is available for $9.50 per 50. You can afford to practice is what I am getting at. DO NOT carry or intend to use any weapon until you have fired a minimum of 200 rounds through it to insure functioning, break-in and if you can hit anything with it. Good luck!
Last edited by Axle grease; 12-07-2010 at 10:28 PM..
Reason: spelling
being female, you may be comfortable with a 20 gauge shotgun over a 12, so a quality pump action 20 gauge would be sufficient for home defense
a lot of people put on a lot of accessories for a home defense shotgun.. shorter barrel, long tube mag, etc, but they really dont know why they do it, it looks cool i guess
get a 20 gauge pump (i like the remington 870s), standard length tube, 18" barrel so itll remain light weight and easy to move around, and as for a stock/grip thats entirely up to what youre most comfortable with
for carrying outside of the house youll need a handgun of course, and i would personally recommend something like a ruger LCR or similar revolver. they are very compact, easy to conceal, and being a revolver makes them insanely reliable, and the 38 special cartridge would be well comfortable enough for you, and just fine at taking down the "bad guys"
another acceptable shotgun is the mossberg 500, but if you intend to use a pistol grip i would stay away from this one as its tang safety is akward to operate with a pistol grip
and you can check out the ruger LCR online and get an idea as to the class of revolver i speak of.. rugers are incredibly strong, durable, and well priced revolver, smiths are very nice too but will cost more.. no one outside of these two companies makes anything id bet my life on
one thing i should explain, you can have the most powerful cartridge in the world and it means nothing if you cant hit the target, and it means still very little if you cant hit him anywhere lethal, a .380 or 38 special will easily drop a target, should you actually aim well enough to hit a major vital organ... yes 9mm, 45acp, 40S&W and so forth all carry more power, but when it comes down to it this all means nothing.. all that matters is whether you hit a vital organ or not, if not, hes not going to die
people will claim bigger rounds leave a bigger hole so the guy bleeds out faster, but due to the natural makeup of the human body, this "bleeding out" would take hours, so above anything else youre going to want accuracy and a lot of trigger time at a local shooting range
also, i strongly recommend getting used to using hand-eye coordination to hit a target instinctively, it takes practice, but if youre in the need to use a handgun, theres a good chance youre not going to be given a lot of time to think, react, and still be able to aim
I mentioned both because I really like the small S&Ws. As I said, those with really small hands might find the S&W too light and recoil to be too heavy, but until a person tries one, there's just no way to find out. As a matter of fact, my wife uses the SP101 with Crimson Trace grips and really loves it. Although she has recoil tolerance (we both shoot many different guns), she likes the fact that the SP101 is a much easier gun to shoot than the smaller-framed Smiths.
Weight is again the reason I don't recommend the Ruger LCR. At 13 oz., it's extremely easy to carry, but how many people really want to practice with that. Even the Smith 642 weighs more (15 oz.).
Animus--again, I would recommend a 12 ga over a 20. People think that because the 20 is a smaller gauge, it has less recoil and is more manageable. In the real world, the 12 doesn't have much more recoil than the 20 because you really can't find many loads for the 20 and most are on the high side of power. Why? Because the 20 is a smaller gauge than the 12 and the ammo manufacturers think everyone wants the most power available! Go figure! Anyway, if you get a 12 ga., have the stock measured and trimmed to your body, the amount of felt recoil of the 12 over the 20 will be negligible.
And, unless you are a very strong woman, stay away from the pistol-gripped shotguns. All that recoil, whether it be a 20ga or a 12ga. will be transferred to your shooting wrist instead of a shoulder. That's okay for a man with 40 percent more muscle mass than a woman, but it can be deadly for a woman with small wrists. Plus they are really hard to aim accurately, and yes, you do have to aim a shotgun!
Of course they would.....if they have a product that don't believe in, it's a moot point really. However, IMO accessories such as Crimson Trace become a crutch for people, that is the short of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal
Somehow I think the folks at Crimson Trace, who integrate their product into the grip, might disagree.
They have a purpose and are quite good as a training aid. Are they for everyone, no. However, those with aging eyes who find it difficult to get a consistent focus on the front sight due to bifocals, darkness, etc... , seem to find them of utility even if they decried them in their younger years.
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