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Wow LJ, Those timber frame houses are beautiful. You can get such large, open spaces and undoubtedly beautiful windows and views. How about termites? Are termites a major concern in Missouri?
I know we have carpenter ants here in NY, and before we renovated our house, every spring they would make a mad dash through the living room. It turned out they were living in tunnels in slightly damp plywood in the roof (which we totally removed). Guess you have to expect some uninvited guests no matter where you live.
Yep, there are subterranian termites living in the ground everywhere around here. You have to take precautions (pre-treating) & do regular maintenance/inspections. Ya don't want to pile up the firewood against the house in this part of the world!
We built ICF buildings in the SW Missouri area. If you have questions I will gladly answer them for you. I am certified as a builder of: ICF. My certifications are for: ICF forms and "National Concrete Homes and Buildings". You may email me direct or I will answer questions for you on this forum. ICF is the best in today's world of storms and weird weather conditions. My latest certifications were in the fall of 2007. Go ahead and ask questions.
An ICF house does not have to have a basement for protection by any means. When built correctly and enforced properly you will be safe without a basement. In todays world of the babyboomers aging a basement will become a feature that won't necessarily be used due to the stairs that individuals will have to climb. There are so many things a person needs to consider when they are reaching 55+ years.
Contact me with questions and we will answer your questions. HVAC, moisture, mildew, we were in the concrete construction business as a family since the 1940's in Missouri.
Last edited by skeating; 01-10-2008 at 01:24 PM..
Reason: english correction
We built ICF buildings in the SW Missouri area. If you have questions I will gladly answer them for you. I am certified as a builder of: ICF. My certifications are for: ICF forms and "National Concrete Homes and Buildings". You may email me direct or I will answer questions for you on this forum. ICF is the best in today's world of storms and weird weather conditions. My latest certifications were in the fall of 2007. Go ahead and ask questions.
An ICF house does not have to have a basement for protection by any means. When built correctly and enforced properly you will be safe without a basement. In todays world of the babyboomers aging a basement will become a feature that won't necessarily be used due to the stairs that individuals will have to climb. There are so many things a person needs to consider when they are reaching 55+ years.
Contact me with questions and we will answer your questions. HVAC, moisture, mildew, we were in the concrete construction business as a family since the 1940's in Missouri.
Hi Skeating,
I do have some questions about ICF. How is the H/VAC modified to cut down on moisture/increase air flow. Is there always a breeze blowing through the house? Dehumidifiers? How does the air exchange requirement differ from a ICF house/frame construction? Can woodstoves be used in an ICF house? What would an average price per square foot be for construction for a residential home in Missouri? Are there special considerations when putting a roof on an ICF house? How do you hang kitchen cabinets on an outside wall, if it is concrete? Do you need to design with cabinets on an inside wall? Is typical wood framing used in the floor construction? Any other idiosyncracies when building an ICF building? Thanks!!! Tambre
I'm sure that Skeating knows way more than I do (and I look forward to those responses), but I can answer a couple of your questions.
1. There isn't going to be a breeze blowing through an ICF house. ICF homes are built so tight that an air ventilation system is usually necessary, but it shouldn't be anything that you'd notice living in the house.
2. Woodstoves are not a problem in an ICF house.
3. Price per sq foot - there is so much variation that I couldn't really answer that for you. I'm hoping that Skeating can give a comparison between prices of identical stick and ICF homes.
4. Roof - most of the heat loss will occur above your head in a home (hot air rises). A lot of ICF homes that I have seen utilize SIP roofs. Others use conventional trusses, but with a lot of insulation overhead. Either method, combined with ICFs will give you an extremely energy efficient home.
5. Cabinets - they can be hung on exterior walls. You'll just need to anchor them into the concrete during installation.
6. Floors - I've seen a variety of flooring options, including conventional wood framing.
I am not an HVAC contractor. The HVAC units are the same as a regular frame construction except the tonnage is much smaller than regular construction requires.
Yes, a wood stove can be used in an ICF house. We live in an ICF house and we have a wood stove, which heats the entire house of 4273 s.f., besides 4273 s.f., this house has cathedral ceilings so the cubical footage is much greater, all the walls are 9' tall, it is very warm and cozy in the winter and as cool as we would like it to be in the summer.
The energy exchange unit is set on timers a house our size and design required two units which turn on and off twice a day, we really never know they are operating. You can if you desire put a humidity unit on your system, we did not and do not find a need for this system.
As far as, placing cabinetry on the outside concrete walls that is absolutely not a problem, the ICF forms are designed with plastic strips every 16" to bolt and screw whatever you want into the wall. As far as running electric, the electrician uses a hot knife to cut out the styrofoam for the wiring, it is very simple to do. Your window sills are deeper than a frame construction, and you do need to plan ahead so you won't have changes on the outside construction, it would be more costly to make changes after the walls are poured.
Insulation: you can use any type of insulation you want. You can use sprayed foam, batted insulation, Nudura (ICF) form company has a ceiling board for insulation which is really nice and fairly simple to attach. In our house we have batted insulation R38 @ vault areas along the walls and R50 batts in the ceiling, we did this so the house would not be completely air tight. A completely air tight house or building would be a bit of a concern for clean air reasons.
Flooring: you can use any flooring you would like just like frame construction.
Construction cost: In our last class the various contractors brought cost comparisons. If you use an experienced contractor that has worked with these forms for a while, the cost is not much of a difference. A few years ago the cost difference was: 3%-5%. Now the cost is approximately: 1%-2.5% greater, even that is only a maybe, some of the contractors are not seeing any significant difference. YOU HAVE TO REALIZE THAT YOU SAVE IN UTILITIES, INSURANCE, AND SAFETY, SOOO.... THE SAVINGS OUTWEIGHS ANY ADDITIONAL COST. The savings will be realized within 1-5 years for certain. You make sure you shop around with insurance companies and find the one that recognizes you have an ICF house, this is a very storm worthy house.
Regarding ICF: the foam insulation forms are also safe for areas where fires are a problem, they showed a house in California on a cliffside that weathered the fires, the only house left standing on the cliff overlooking the valleys.
Roofing: you can place any type of roofing you want on the house. The present home we live in has scissor trusses which were engineered at the plant and sent to our jobsite for constructing. You should strap your sill plates and use hurricane ties for your roof. There are alot of extras we did for this house we live in for display and testing purposes. We live in an area where the wind comes up the valleys, when wind gusts are 30-50 m.p.h. our gusts will be 70-80 m.p.h. or greater, this location is the perfect test area.
Windows: you can you whatever windows you want in your house. We built this house with metal framed double-paned e glass (we wanted alot of strength) we have alot of windows in this building. The west side is where all the storms come from and that side of the building is 75% glass.
Utilities: you will have a substantial savings in your utilities. The house we now have is an example of savings. This house is 4273 s.f. of floor space not counting the cubical space with all the cathedral ceilings and remember we have alot of glass on west side. The average utility for house is: $140. per month. This utility cost includes the following: 80 gallon energy efficient water heater. We have two very large offices with three- five computers operating at all times, there are two full kitchens and two full laundry rooms, televisions in every room. We had a seven-eight person spa on the back patio operating while considering the utility costs. There are two separate living areas in this house, plus offices, this house should be an energy hog, but it isn't.
House design: you can design your home to be whatever theme you want. ICF DOES NOT LIMIT YOUR DESIGN. Your home can be traditional, country french, western style. You can build ranch, two or three story.
ICF CONSTRUCTION IS BEING USED FOR RESIDENTIAL AND COMMERCIAL!!! IT CAN BE USED TO JUST MAKE A TORNADO SHELTER IN YOUR BACK YARD... It is limitless for construction. there are loads of websites for more info. you can go to and study, research and even forums for questions and answers.
Feel free to ask if any more questions. Please go on-line and research. go to : NRMCA, NUDURA, there are alot more sites for your review.
I'm sure that Skeating knows way more than I do (and I look forward to those responses), but I can answer a couple of your questions.
1. There isn't going to be a breeze blowing through an ICF house. ICF homes are built so tight that an air ventilation system is usually necessary, but it shouldn't be anything that you'd notice living in the house.
2. Woodstoves are not a problem in an ICF house.
3. Price per sq foot - there is so much variation that I couldn't really answer that for you. I'm hoping that Skeating can give a comparison between prices of identical stick and ICF homes.
4. Roof - most of the heat loss will occur above your head in a home (hot air rises). A lot of ICF homes that I have seen utilize SIP roofs. Others use conventional trusses, but with a lot of insulation overhead. Either method, combined with ICFs will give you an extremely energy efficient home.
5. Cabinets - they can be hung on exterior walls. You'll just need to anchor them into the concrete during installation.
6. Floors - I've seen a variety of flooring options, including conventional wood framing.
I am not an HVAC contractor. The HVAC units are the same as a regular frame construction except the tonnage is much smaller than regular construction requires.
Yes, a wood stove can be used in an ICF house. We live in an ICF house and we have a wood stove, which heats the entire house of 4273 s.f., besides 4273 s.f., this house has cathedral ceilings so the cubical footage is much greater, all the walls are 9' tall, it is very warm and cozy in the winter and as cool as we would like it to be in the summer.
The energy exchange unit is set on timers a house our size and design required two units which turn on and off twice a day, we really never know they are operating. You can if you desire put a humidity unit on your system, we did not and do not find a need for this system.
As far as, placing cabinetry on the outside concrete walls that is absolutely not a problem, the ICF forms are designed with plastic strips every 16" to bolt and screw whatever you want into the wall. As far as running electric, the electrician uses a hot knife to cut out the styrofoam for the wiring, it is very simple to do. Your window sills are deeper than a frame construction, and you do need to plan ahead so you won't have changes on the outside construction, it would be more costly to make changes after the walls are poured.
Insulation: you can use any type of insulation you want. You can use sprayed foam, batted insulation, Nudura (ICF) form company has a ceiling board for insulation which is really nice and fairly simple to attach. In our house we have batted insulation R38 @ vault areas along the walls and R50 batts in the ceiling, we did this so the house would not be completely air tight. A completely air tight house or building would be a bit of a concern for clean air reasons.
Flooring: you can use any flooring you would like just like frame construction.
Construction cost: In our last class the various contractors brought cost comparisons. If you use an experienced contractor that has worked with these forms for a while, the cost is not much of a difference. A few years ago the cost difference was: 3%-5%. Now the cost is approximately: 1%-2.5% greater, even that is only a maybe, some of the contractors are not seeing any significant difference. YOU HAVE TO REALIZE THAT YOU SAVE IN UTILITIES, INSURANCE, AND SAFETY, SOOO.... THE SAVINGS OUTWEIGHS ANY ADDITIONAL COST. The savings will be realized within 1-5 years for certain. You make sure you shop around with insurance companies and find the one that recognizes you have an ICF house, this is a very storm worthy house.
Regarding ICF: the foam insulation forms are also safe for areas where fires are a problem, they showed a house in California on a cliffside that weathered the fires, the only house left standing on the cliff overlooking the valleys.
Roofing: you can place any type of roofing you want on the house. The present home we live in has scissor trusses which were engineered at the plant and sent to our jobsite for constructing. You should strap your sill plates and use hurricane ties for your roof. There are alot of extras we did for this house we live in for display and testing purposes. We live in an area where the wind comes up the valleys, when wind gusts are 30-50 m.p.h. our gusts will be 70-80 m.p.h. or greater, this location is the perfect test area.
Windows: you can you whatever windows you want in your house. We built this house with metal framed double-paned e glass (we wanted alot of strength) we have alot of windows in this building. The west side is where all the storms come from and that side of the building is 75% glass.
Utilities: you will have a substantial savings in your utilities. The house we now have is an example of savings. This house is 4273 s.f. of floor space not counting the cubical space with all the cathedral ceilings and remember we have alot of glass on west side. The average utility for house is: $140. per month. This utility cost includes the following: 80 gallon energy efficient water heater. We have two very large offices with three- five computers operating at all times, there are two full kitchens and two full laundry rooms, televisions in every room. We had a seven-eight person spa on the back patio operating while considering the utility costs. There are two separate living areas in this house, plus offices, this house should be an energy hog, but it isn't.
House design: you can design your home to be whatever theme you want. ICF DOES NOT LIMIT YOUR DESIGN. Your home can be traditional, country french, western style. You can build ranch, two or three story.
ICF CONSTRUCTION IS BEING USED FOR RESIDENTIAL AND COMMERCIAL!!! IT CAN BE USED TO JUST MAKE A TORNADO SHELTER IN YOUR BACK YARD... It is limitless for construction. there are loads of websites for more info. you can go to and study, research and even forums for questions and answers.
Feel free to ask if any more questions. Please go on-line and research. go to : NRMCA, NUDURA, there are alot more sites for your review.
The energy exchange unit is set on timers a house our size and design required two units which turn on and off twice a day, we really never know they are operating. You can if you desire put a humidity unit on your system, we did not and do not find a need for this system.
Hi Skeating,
You are truly a wealth of information on this subject, and are sharing some really interesting information on a new kind of building process that I had never heard of before this forum. Rep points for Skeating and Snake too!
What is an energy exchange unit?
What are wall vaults (such as the one's filled with R38? ) This kind of construction is really sounding fantastic! The energy savings would really add up over time. Any drawbacks, aside from difficulty with renovations? Any cracking or settling problems?
What would a ball park estimate be, for an average house, with a basement, HVAC system, well and septic installed, to use a round number, say 2,000 square feet, what would a builder charge in Missouri for stick built/or ICF? Per sq. foot., given that the floor plan was exactly the same....not including the land? I understand that top of the line would be more, and bottom of the line would be less, but could you give a range for the cost of square foot construction using the two methods? I already have been given an average s.f. price by a builder in the area I would be moving to, but he doesn't use ICF. Thanks again for the wonderful information.
Tambre, I am not a builder. I've done some research on ICF and SIP construction, but I'm not in the construction industry.
Are you planning a build in the Springfield area?
Skeating,
Have you worked with SIPs before? I'd love to hear some comparisons between SIP and ICF work. Thanks for all of your info on ICFs thus far!
Hi Snake,
We bought some acreage in Mansfield, and want to build a house there eventually.. We may try to build a sort of economical garage/storage/studio living space, first, then build a house after we sell here our house here in NY. I originally wanted to build a storm shelter in this storage building, a "fraidy room", as my contractor jokingly called it. After reading about the job market, it may be a good place to go to read the Springfield News-Leader classified ads, as difficulty getting a job ... that's becoming even scarier than the tornado threat.
But all trepidation aside, the ICF construction sounds really sensible, but I've never heard of it before this CD forum. As you mentioned, I am also looking forward to learning more about the SIPs. Energy efficiency is of the utmost importance, given the rising cost of oil. Who knows, maybe hitching posts at Walmart in the future.
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ICF construction
