Is St. Louis a Southern city? (Kansas City, Ladue: high school, yard, clothing)

[EddieOlSkool]

Originally Posted by Smtchll

This is really idiotic. You act like everyone in the South is preppy. What you are describing is mainly restricted to certain classes of people in the South. And it's the same in the Midwest. Go to Ladue, Clayton, most of West St. Louis County and you will see those preppy types everywhere. But go to South St. Louis and you won't see them. Just like if you went to a typical Wal-Mart in the South, you're not gonna see preppy people everywhere. It's a question of class, not geography. The whole preppy thing came from the Northeast anyways, not the South

Preppy Southern and Preppy New England share similarities but its stupid to try and decide who invented the style. Whatever the case is, it is common in the South and you obviously don't live in the South if you think it's saved just for special occassions or rich people. Any person can pick up that style of clothing online and not break the bank. The point is that culturally, you don't see it as much outside of the Atlantic seaboard if you really wanted to include New England in this. It's not like Philly or New York youth are dressing like this anyway. Like ever. Baltimore more likely. In Louisville, it is not restricted to demographic groups. It is an integral part of the culture. You really must not travel to Louisville enough. Every weekend on Bardstown rd and NuLu, 4th St that style is De facto. It's how you dress here. That's not Cincy or Indy and nuch less Chicago or Cleveland. Dear God no.

[STL1980]

St. Louis is preppy in pockets (Ladue, CWE, Clayton), so that's how some might think it seems southern, but certainly no one says ya'll here, unless you're in some far flung suburb.

[PerseusVeil]

Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool

St. Louis? That's Midwest. First off, there's no trace of a Southern accent there. Maybe how they slightly front their o's, sort of barely. I mean, they sound like Chicagoans who moved away from Chicago for a few years. The St. Louis accent isn't even Southern influenced. It's technically a transitional Midland accent going on Northern. It's actually the only Midland/"Midwest" dialect with Great Lakes influence.

Not really. People my age sound similar, as both accents have become far more muted, but grab someone 50+ from a St. Louis suburb and a Chicago suburb and you'll realize the accents don't sound as alike as you think. Not unless you assume Chicagoans regularly switch the letter "o" with an "a" in a plethora of words. The most stereotypical example being "highway farty-far" for "forty-four". "Warsh" instead of "wash" (ex: Warshington Ave) is also something that pops up in older St. Louisans, although with less frequency.

[MUTGR]

Originally Posted by PerseusVeil

Not really. People my age sound similar, as both accents have become far more muted, but grab someone 50+ from a St. Louis suburb and a Chicago suburb and you'll realize the accents don't sound as alike as you think. Not unless you assume Chicagoans regularly switch the letter "o" with an "a" in a plethora of words. The most stereotypical example being "highway farty-far" for "forty-four". "Warsh" instead of "wash" (ex: Warshington Ave) is also something that pops up in older St. Louisans, although with less frequency.

Yes, I'm St. Louis born and raised and Chicago has a very distinct accent. Perhaps its fading out with the younger generations, I don't really know.

Of course it was a skit, but it was funny because it was true but exaggerated, but think about the SNL skit about Ditka and Da Bears. St. Louis people don't talk like that. Maybe it's being lost with the younger generations as you say, but I still pick it up when I'm in Chicago from the locals or even in the vicinity on Chicago radio as we frequently pass through Chicagoland. A couple of the guys on sports radio have the accent big time. And you can hear it from people on TV like Suze Orman. Heck you can pick it up occasionally from Hillary (she says "Faaar" like a native Chicagoan.

[EddieOlSkool]

Originally Posted by MUTGR

Yes, I'm St. Louis born and raised and Chicago has a very distinct accent. Perhaps its fading out with the younger generations, I don't really know.

Of course it was a skit, but it was funny because it was true but exaggerated, but think about the SNL skit about Ditka and Da Bears. St. Louis people don't talk like that. Maybe it's being lost with the younger generations as you say, but I still pick it up when I'm in Chicago from the locals or even in the vicinity on Chicago radio as we frequently pass through Chicagoland. A couple of the guys on sports radio have the accent big time. And you can hear it from people on TV like Suze Orman. Heck you can pick it up occasionally from Hillary (she says "Faaar" like a native Chicagoan.

That skit was Chris Farley teaching people to sound like Wisconsinites. That's not a Chicago accent and that's why no one in either Chicago or St. Louis sounds that way.

St. Louis has the same Northern Cities Vowel Shift that Chicago has. Short vowels take on sounds that sound like other vowels. Short a is the same vowel no matter what consonant it precedes and always takes on a tensed nasal sound. Short e sounds like "uh" to most other Americans and is really shortened. Short i takes on a sound between short e and short I. Short o takes on the sound similar to a short a except the mouth is more open. In STL, this happens even before the letter R giving it a somewhat Irish sound. And short u takes on a sound similar to short o in other regions of the country. This vowel shift has mostly affected the Great Lakes but St. Louis is the only heartland affected by it via the connection of the Illinois River.

But STL still has a Midland dialect in other aspects.

[MUTGR]

Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool

That skit was Chris Farley teaching people to sound like Wisconsinites. That's not a Chicago accent and that's why no one in either Chicago or St. Louis sounds that way.

St. Louis has the same Northern Cities Vowel Shift that Chicago has. Short vowels take on sounds that sound like other vowels. Short a is the same vowel no matter what consonant it precedes and always takes on a tensed nasal sound. Short e sounds like "uh" to most other Americans and is really shortened. Short i takes on a sound between short e and short I. Short o takes on the sound similar to a short a except the mouth is more open. In STL, this happens even before the letter R giving it a somewhat Irish sound. And short u takes on a sound similar to short o in other regions of the country. This vowel shift has mostly affected the Great Lakes but St. Louis is the only heartland affected by it via the connection of the Illinois River.

But STL still has a Midland dialect in other aspects.

Only, people in Chicago do sound that way. People in St. Louis don't because they sound different.

[PerseusVeil]

Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool

That skit was Chris Farley teaching people to sound like Wisconsinites. That's not a Chicago accent and that's why no one in either Chicago or St. Louis sounds that way.

St. Louis has the same Northern Cities Vowel Shift that Chicago has. Short vowels take on sounds that sound like other vowels. Short a is the same vowel no matter what consonant it precedes and always takes on a tensed nasal sound. Short e sounds like "uh" to most other Americans and is really shortened. Short i takes on a sound between short e and short I. Short o takes on the sound similar to a short a except the mouth is more open. In STL, this happens even before the letter R giving it a somewhat Irish sound. And short u takes on a sound similar to short o in other regions of the country. This vowel shift has mostly affected the Great Lakes but St. Louis is the only heartland affected by it via the connection of the Illinois River.

But STL still has a Midland dialect in other aspects.

The Northern Cities Vowel Shift is not currently as prevalent in St. Louis as it is in Chicago.

[EddieOlSkool]

Originally Posted by MUTGR

Only, people in Chicago do sound that way. People in St. Louis don't because they sound different.

Some of the vowel shifts they got right on that skit but they gave us no justice in how we say certain words. Sausage is not pronounced saaasage but rather SAWsage. The "aw" sound becoming "ah" would indicate a more Minnesota or Wisconsin accent where caught sounds like cot and takes on the sound of an A. Not so the case in Chicago. We say "aw" in some cases, "aa" in others. Like "hot dog" is a phrase where the first vowel doesn't rhyme with the last. They also made the accent's diction have sort of a sing song vibe which again, isn't Chicago. It was the equivalent of saying St. Louis people sound like Chicago. They don't but there are some similarities.

Whatever the case is, the St. Louis accent is Northern influenced rather than Southern.

[U146]

Originally Posted by PerseusVeil

The Northern Cities Vowel Shift is not currently as prevalent in St. Louis as it is in Chicago.

Nonetheless, it still happens here. St. Louis is the only Midwest city not in the Upper Midwest or Great Lakes area to undergo the shift. To my knowledge, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Columbus, and Cincinnati didn't undergo the shift.

[EddieOlSkool]

Originally Posted by U146

Nonetheless, it still happens here. St. Louis is the only Midwest city not in the Upper Midwest or Great Lakes area to undergo the shift. To my knowledge, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Columbus, and Cincinnati didn't undergo the shift.

Exactly. Only the Great Lakes and part of the Upper Midwest underwent this change. The rest of the Midwest maintains typically General American pronunciation patterns. Cincy at times takes on Southern patterns.