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Just to throw another scenario out there for you...tenure only protects you if they want to get rid of you. All it does is guarantee that you get representation if they try and terminate you. They must provide just cause or you have to do something that would endanger students or touch a student, or are defiantly insubordinate. Tenure is (in most cases) given after 6 semesters (3 years) of successful evaluations in the same school district, in some states tenure is after 2 years, in other states it's on the first day of the 4th year~every state is different.
In some states, tenure follows you from one district to another~in others you start over each time you switch districts. If a person is denied tenure, they can be brought back for the following year on what is called an personal improvement plan..goals that have to be met, hoops that have to be jumped through, forms that have to be filled out, peer reviews, etc. Just because you won't be getting tenure, doesn't mean they will terminate you...
I think they are playing games with you, you can't be a bad teacher, otherwise they would have let you go a long time ago. Replaced you with a 20 something that might stay for 1 or 2 years and leave. In the long run they would be less expensive than hiring a person with experience (your classroom/industry and world experience). If you are denied tenure, you might still have the opportunity to work without tenure..under the same temporary contract (or whatever they are calling it now; employment agreement, temporary contract, non-binding agreement). Letting a teacher go that they really don't want is not that big of an expense for the district. They pay unemployment insurance, so it's not like it's out of their pocket to have to pay your unemployment. Also, they would be making money off of you towards your COBRA, because they would charge you the full price group rate, plus an administrative fee. My COBRA, after retirement with 33 years, is over $1600 month for two adults.
So, if you are going to another position in education, another district, my advice is to follow protocol, they district that is hiring you will understand this, they deal with it all the time when the offer of employment is put out once the school year has started. If you are leave to go back in to private sector, and will no longer need your certificate, you have every ground to stand on with giving them 2 weeks notice (and burning sick days/personal days if you have any accumulated).
K-12 teachers don't have "tenure." They don't even have any real due process rights, just the "right" to a sham hearing that is rigged in a school district's favor.
They can literally make stuff up. Are you that naive that you think people who are kicked to the curb deserve it? Administrative law isn't worth the paper it is written on, and districts violate the law all the time to get rid of teachers some idiot principal doesn't want.
My district broke the damned law and rigged my hearing, and my lousy union and its equally worthless lawyer didn't tell me about EEOC, without which I could not file a civil claim in federal court.
Maybe the principal will get a new job in another district. Problem solved!!!!
It takes an act of Congress to get rid of a principal. Teachers can be gotten rid of very easily, and districts have an arsenal of ways to do it.
Few teachers are "fired" in education, but the term "fired," meaning "dismissed," doesn't mean squat. Few teachers bother to go through the sham hearings, preferring to admit guilt by taking a severance package (dubbed a "settlement" in educratese) and resigning. Others take early retirement, while those who don't have continuing contracts are fired through non-renewals.
If you are not planning on teaching again you don't need to worry about the 60 days, although Arizona has successfully fined some of their teachers who left early.
Moreover, if you are not planning on teaching again, you don't even need to worry about the possibility of getting your licensure revoked. Who cares, if you don't intend to stay in the field?
K-12 teachers don't have "tenure." They don't even have any real due process rights, just the "right" to a sham hearing that is rigged in a school district's favor.
They can literally make stuff up. Are you that naive that you think people who are kicked to the curb deserve it? Administrative law isn't worth the paper it is written on, and districts violate the law all the time to get rid of teachers some idiot principal doesn't want.
My district broke the damned law and rigged my hearing, and my lousy union and its equally worthless lawyer didn't tell me about EEOC, without which I could not file a civil claim in federal court.
I've already realized this. That's why I accept that there is nothing I can do except try like hell to get out before it happens. I have been but I didn't start looking for a teaching job until June, because I didn't know about this situation (my principal acts like my best friend to my face and I'm stupid in that I didn't see this coming) until the very end of May when I had my PR. That's too late for spring hiring. If people here are right, I never had a chance for fall hiring because they extended an offer I couldn't refuse because their doing so excludes me from collecting UI (which replaces one of my checks per month) because other districts have some unwritten rule about taking each other's teachers.
I don't want to be there in the spring when this goes down. I don't know how much support my principal has in this but from what I've heard about this district, they will let it happen rather than admit that the principal they hired went too far. So if he goes for it, I'm done.
What burns my butt is that they put so much on tenure when you're right, it means nothing really. It just means they need a reason to fire me and they can make one up if they really want to be rid of me. Trust me, we all have our moments. We all make mistakes. All it would take is making all the bad stuff got into the PR and none of the good stuff did. I know it can be done. They fired a tenured teacher this summer (We're not allowed to talk about particulars so don't ask why). So my principal's reason for doing this to me right now is BS. He presents this as his hands are tied. HE MUST do it now because of my perception problem in the community. Gee, maybe I wouldn't have one if he used some of that data he says shows I'm as effective as any of the teachers who teach the same subjects I do to defend me instead of hiding it because it doesn't say what he wants it to say.
The bottom line is I don't teach the way he wants me to teach. I've tried and I struggle with classroom management even worse. It doesn't fit my personality (from what I hear he wasn't any good at it either). I am, however, effective in what I do. Unfortunately, I don't do well in situations like this. I never learned to fight dirty and it wouldn't help me anyway. He has all the power and there's nothing I can do about it unless someone above him takes up my fight and I do not see that happening. I'm not a native of the city and I don't have friends in high places. So, tomorrow begins my last year of teaching.
If there are any principals out there reading my saga, I would really appreciate advice on how to recover from denial of tenure. This really is just a personality mismatch between me and my principal and he's got this idea that if he doesn't get rid of me now he's stuck with me forever. My peers think getting stuck with me is a good thing because I'm the teacher who makes sure we're doing plenty of hands on things in the science classes. I'm even adding a lab to geometry this year (instead of teaching sine, cosine and tangent, I'm going to have the kids build triangles out of meter sticks, then measure the sides and hypotenuse at different points and show themselves that the ratios are the same as long as the angle stays the same. I used to do this in the charter school with the physics kids because their math was so weak. I think it's going to be really effective with 9th graders. I'm hoping to see a marked difference in their ability to deal with the trig functions. I swear, even after teaching them, they just don't get it so this year, they will discover the relationships.) I also inject math into physical science (math is the Achilles heel of most of my students who struggle). Last year, I had my physical science kids (and the other classes as well) discover the distance formula. It was funny. When they finished the calculations, I had student after student tell me "Something's wrong, the numbers are the same.". Nothing was wrong.
What do you consider to be the right thing to do in a situation like this?
I really have to wonder why you post questions like this. As soon as someone answers you, you go off on tangents about how wrong their opinion is and that you have it all figured out. Why ask then? You get very harsh with people that are only trying to help you think things through. It's not easy to think clearly when you are in an angry state of mind so people were just trying to point out things that you may not have considered due to your emotional state about the situation. Then you start with the "I know a jury will believe me," "I know it will be a jury trial" "I know......"
If you already know how a situation will play out from start to finish, then why pose a question?
It takes an act of Congress to get rid of a principal. Teachers can be gotten rid of very easily, and districts have an arsenal of ways to do it.
I'm not suggesting the principal be fired. I was merely saying perhaps the principal would move to another district. In my area principals and superintendents switch districts on a yearly basis. Very commom where I live.
Moreover, if you are not planning on teaching again, you don't even need to worry about the possibility of getting your licensure revoked. Who cares, if you don't intend to stay in the field?
Once I have a job in engineering, I will no longer care. Until such a time I have to care because I don't have a crystal ball. I don't know which way the water will roll down this hill.
Until we reach the end, whichever end it is, I have to protect my cert but you are correct that I don't need it if I end up back in engineering. However, I don't have an engineering job waiting for me. I'm in limbo and can't afford to burn any bridge that might get me out of limbo.
I will continue to look for an engineering job throughout the year and take one if offered even if it means I can never use my teaching cert again but if I don't find one, I will go through the spring teacher job fairs and pray someone understands that sometimes good teachers just end up in bad situations who hires me and then go to my principal and say "Drop the denial of tenure an I'll leave" (so I can answer no to the question "Have you ever been denied tenure?" in the future) and if that doesn't play out, we'll see if my principal really will go through with denial of tenure (it has been suggested that he may be blowing smoke and trying to get me to quit because he doesn't have a case to fire me but I think the school board will side with him rather than make the district look bad if he does go for it so I do think he has the stronger hand.).
I'm not suggesting the principal be fired. I was merely saying perhaps the principal would move to another district. In my area principals and superintendents switch districts on a yearly basis. Very commom where I live.
That would so be a dream come true. Unfortunately, principals seem to last about 15 years at this school. He's in year 6 or 7. Still, I can dream...
A counselor can help you put this in proper perspective, help you figure out your contributions to the problem so you don't end up in the same place again, and help you sort out realistic options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonysam
A counselor is a waste of time and money.
It's a lousy administrator that is the problem.
The problem she should see the counselor for is how to cope with the situation she is in. Part of that is learning how to avoid landing in the same situation again.
I have read Ivory's posts for over a year, and she and the principal had been clashing for some time, enough so that for my own sanity, had I been in her shoes, I would have been looking for a job the minute I could last year, if not the year before. Based on the stuff she has written, his decision to not tenure her came as no suprise to me, and it shouldn't have been a surprise to her. It was clear he didn't like her from the stories she told and we all know that principals can fire non-tenured teachers without a single reason other than they want to. He told her he wasn't going to re-new her but then did, my guess is district hiring people made him because she is in a hard to fill certification area. Most likely if she were a Social Studies or English teacher she would have been non-renewed already. They probably didn't have someone else waiting in the wings and they told him "it's not like you are stuck forever with her because she isn't tenured yet." They will probably not make him tenure her because then they will be stuck with her, or at least getting rid of her will take a heck of a lot more work. I do imagine the principal told her about not tenuring her next year in hopes that she would look for another job and quit. My guess is if she had got that other job the principal would be thrilled and perfectly happy to let her go, the district personel department on the hand might not.
The point is Ivory is really struggling with the situation she is in, and while counseling might not change the current situation, it might help her cope with it better. It would be even better if it helped her avoid being in it again.
The problem she should see the counselor for is how to cope with the situation she is in. Part of that is learning how to avoid landing in the same situation again.
I have read Ivory's posts for over a year, and she and the principal had been clashing for some time, enough so that for my own sanity, had I been in her shoes, I would have been looking for a job the minute I could last year, if not the year before. Based on the stuff she has written, his decision to not tenure her came as no suprise to me, and it shouldn't have been a surprise to her. It was clear he didn't like her from the stories she told and we all know that principals can fire non-tenured teachers without a single reason other than they want to. He told her he wasn't going to re-new her but then did, my guess is district hiring people made him because she is in a hard to fill certification area. Most likely if she were a Social Studies or English teacher she would have been non-renewed already. They probably didn't have someone else waiting in the wings and they told him "it's not like you are stuck forever with her because she isn't tenured yet." They will probably not make him tenure her because then they will be stuck with her, or at least getting rid of her will take a heck of a lot more work. I do imagine the principal told her about not tenuring her next year in hopes that she would look for another job and quit. My guess is if she had got that other job the principal would be thrilled and perfectly happy to let her go, the district personel department on the hand might not.
The point is Ivory is really struggling with the situation she is in, and while counseling might not change the current situation, it might help her cope with it better. It would be even better if it helped her avoid being in it again.
I agree with this statement but I don't get why he didn't tell me in time for spring recruiting. He waited until AFTER the prime hiring season to tell me. That makes no sense. I should have been told in March and then given their blessing to take off and go to the job fairs. As things are, I had about 5 week window to find another job in teaching if it is true that districts don't take each other's teachers after July 1st. That was not enough time.
I don't think this situation is of my making at all. I sought the council of my peers when I first realized I had a problem with my principal which was the end of the previous school year. He's the type who smiles to your face and then stabs you in the back. We have WONDERFUL conversations about how to improve my teaching during the year only to have my PR written based on a couple of small incidents and nothing I'd improved even making into my PR. Last year was more smiling to my face. I refuse all meetings with him unless there is a union rep present now. The tenure issue came as a surprise to the union rep too. They were stunned he even told me. Some believe he can't do it and is trying to get me to quit before it just happens. In Michigan, tenure is a matter of how long you're at a school. It's not something they grant. If I'm still there on a certain date, I tenure, period.
The stupid thing is it's not like he couldn't get rid of me even if I was tenured because tenure only means they need a reason to get rid of me. Seriously, the way this guy writes PR's, that's easy enough to do. He's great at omitting anything good. In his office, he told me that data doesn't support my "perception" problem. In my letter of recommendation, he states that I had the highest percent of proficient students in my classes. While this doesn't mean much because we're talking small sample sizes, this is data that could have been used to fight that perception problem. The bottom line is, he doesn't like me. From watching him, my perception is, he likes male teachers and he doesn't mind young female teachers he can treat like daughters. He doesn't like opinionated women. I'm female, old and opinionated which is three strikes in his book. Four if you count not a native of the city. I know why I'm in this situation and it's not of my doing. If I had it to do over again, the only thing I'd do differently is have a union rep sit in on every meeting with him from day one so there were no misunderstandings. It seems we have a lot of them if I don't bring a witness.
I understand you're just looking out for me and I appreciate that but a counselor really won't help me any more than venting here. What I need is a place to scream when I need to scream. I do that here. Some people are supportive and I thank those of you who are. Some are just jerks and I just put them on ignore. I'm going over the big hill on the roller coaster and I don't know that there's track at the bottom. I'm praying that this is like most things in life and the anticipation is worse than the actual event. Maybe those who think he lacks the ability to deny me tenure (he has to, permanently, dismiss me by the end of next year) are right. Maybe he does have the ability. I don't know. I know I did nothing to deserve this. My peers will tell you that I've improved their teaching. Coming out of industry, I play well with others. I share. I don't hoard my good lesson plans for myself. I don't mind setting up labs for my partner teachers as it makes no sense for both of us to have to stay until 7:00 PM the night before a lab. They tell me I make them better teachers and I make their lives easier. I love planning labs and activities. That doesn't even seem like work to me. And now that my kids are older, I don't mind staying late to do it. (Clean up is another story. I never have liked doing dishes by hand.)
There are things about teaching that I'm passionate about and those are things that spill over to the other teachers who teach the same subjects (one thing my principal faults me for is failing to stand out from the other teachers who are more often doing what I do than me doing what they do (there is one teacher I follow but I still get my 2 cents in as he respects my subject knowledge and experience in science)....). I don't want to stand out. That would mean that I'm keeping my best stuff for me when I think we should share. I think we should improve each other and give each other a break every now and again. If I've got a great lesson planned, I'll be more than happy to make enough copies for you too. I just ask you do the same when you've got a great one.
When I look at me, I think I have a lot of qualities a good principal would want. I don't call in sick unless I'm dying because I hate how sub plans mess up the flow of my content, I know my content inside out and upside down, I endeavor to make the content meaningful, challenging and to get kids up on their feet doing instead of just listening, I believe in finding best practices and then sharing them with my peers and I'm not offended if one of my peers has something better than I have to share. I think nothing breeds success like success and try to find ways for my students to succeed. Okay, I struggle with the deliberately disrespectful and disruptive student but so does every other teacher I've ever talked to about what to do with them.
Anyone out there want a Chemistry/physics/math teacher??? If I could just settle in somewhere and teach, I'd be fine. That's all I really want. I just don't think it's ever going to happen for me with this whole denial of tenure thing. While I'm not perfect, this is 90% my principal.
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Unfortunately, principals seem to last about 15 years at this school. He's in year 6 or 7. Still, I can dream...
). I don't want to stand out. That would mean that I'm keeping my best stuff for me when I think we should share. I think we should improve each other and give each other a break every now and again. If I've got a great lesson planned, I'll be more than happy to make enough copies for you too. I just ask you do the same when you've got a great one. 