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+1. Rail isn't a "build it and they will come" thing, especially in 2023. The car is already the favored form of transportation, especially in Texas. While it's gotten noticeably worse traffic-wise in recent years, DFW still isn't that hard to get around by car and probably won't be for decades, if ever. Many, if not most of those warehouse districts that DART passes through will still be warehouse districts 20 or 30 years from now.
You are completely correct on the Silver Line and its vanity status. Suburbanites aren't going to use it in any serious numbers except possibly to go to/from DFW and I'm even skeptical that it will be that popular for those types of trips due to the travel time - it will take notably longer than driving the vast majority of the time. This is my concern when talking about the rail to IAH that many folks like to fantasize about here - at the end of the day most of those folks wouldn't actually use it due to the travel time. There was a direct bus from downtown and uptown to IAH for years that cost $1.50 IIRC. It was never used and I believe neither of those services exist today. And it was faster than any rail solution would be. The reality is that many of those Silver Line stations won't crack 1,000 passengers a day for years if not decades.
The people that lament the delay of D2 are correct in that it was a much more useful project than the Silver Line and would have been much better for the system as a whole by enabling shorter headways throughout. That would at least solve the poor quality of service issue. However, even D2 wouldn't be able to make up for the poor density present throughout much of the rest of the system. That's ingrained in the choices made in the 80s and 90s and not going anyway any time soon. Some areas will densify but it should be abundantly clear by now that TOD doesn't just pop up because a rail line is nearby. Not in Dallas, not in Houston, not anywhere that doesn't have huge urban development pressures.
You are correct about that. BTW just for everyone to know, I am not trying to trash DART at all, but when I see DART continuing to make the same mistakes and not learn from them, that's very concerning to me. I truly want DART to be successful as possible.
I know I mentioned Preston Center in a pervious post, but look at all the traffic that's being generated by the office/retail/hotel/residential space. This Google streetview is from March 2023. This is what I mean when I say the dense areas are not being served properly. Parking is an issue within the district and I am sure people who work in the office buildings and retail would benefit from expanded transit options. Even BRT would be great for that area. The growth has not slowed down either as more mid-rise/high-rises continue to be built.
...which is exactly why its a vanity project - its being built for political reasons rather than being the best use of funding. D2 is clearly the better use of funds but DART is being forced to build the Silver Line. I'm anticipating a huge white elephant, but who knows - maybe the cul-de-sac crowd is rearing to ride public transportation from suburb to suburb. And it sure sounds good in marketing brochures.
This analysis shows why the Silver Line is just another example of adding lines on a map that will attract very few riders - these outlying areas simply don't attract much transit demand. Transit is best concentrated in corridors where people will actually use it.
If you're actually interested in knowing the answer, its also due to politics, and specifically politicians in Houston. In 2003, the voters voted for a large rail system that included what today is the Uptown BRT and a line on Richmond Ave. as light rail. Then John Culberson inserted himself into things as many of his constituents on Richmond didn't want the rail line coming through their neighborhoods, so he actually got language inserted into a funding bill specifically prohibiting that line being funded. He and Metro fought about this for more than a decade before Metro finally started turning its attention to BRT and gave up on the rail line.
Fun fact - much of the FTA funding that would have gone towards building the Uptown and University lines ended up going to DART, and helped them move up the Green and Orange line expansions significantly. That's part of the reason they were able to expand the system so quickly. Had the original system that voters wanted been built, MetroRail would easily have higher overall ridership than DART. But, as in so many other things in life, politics and whiny rich people got in the way.
BRT is a good choice to establish the lines and can be converted to rail if ridership gets high enough. If the Richmond/Westpark line is built correctly, I could definitely see it being converted to rail in the long term. Uptown and Katy lines - we'll see.
I am astounded at how intelligent all these Housonian posters are using proper Eglish and big words. I guess they have to be in order to embellish their inferior arguments. I never believe them, but I'm always tempted to go dancing around the airport and selling flowers.
Addison got their rail built last. They had to build it. Before the rail got built, cities began to build developments around the future stations. Considering what has already been built and what is now under construction, who knows what amount of construction will get built after the line is completed.
I am astounded at how intelligent all these Housonian posters are using proper Eglish and big words. I guess they have to be in order to embellish their inferior arguments. I never believe them, but I'm always tempted to go dancing around the airport and selling flowers.
Addison got their rail built last. They had to build it. Before the rail got built, cities began to build developments around the future stations. Considering what has already been built and what is now under construction, who knows what amount of construction will get built after the line is completed.
Well I don't know man - I guess proper Eglish is a Housonian thing?
Well I don't know man - I guess proper Eglish is a Housonian thing?
Typical. Rather than address the substance, they always fall back on the style.
Cypress Waters along the Silver Line erupted out of no where! It has just about become another urban district like the Las Colinas Urban District both of them built around small lakes. That is just one of the stops. Addison is a mini downtown Dallas with 11 million square feet of office space. It is another stop on the line. Isn't there a line that stops at the University of Texas at Dallas?
If your argument is against commuter heavy rail, I agree. That kind of rail doesn't make sense anywhere but New York City. Then again, everyone is moving away from New York City.
But he is right though. He is thinking it over more critically than passionately.
He knows that Dallas should have focused on Dallas first. Make it work. A regional effort works for airports, seaports, etc, but in terms of transit they should have focused on a few dense nodes and after those get established they can connect those with commuter lines.
Dallaz is also right that the suburbs only pressed to be included just to be included. The need just is not there yet. Yall keep making fun of Houston’s use of busses, but Dallas should have stuck with busses to the burbs only for a while and as need increases replace certain lines with rail.
Another thing Dallas Likes to make fun of Houston about is Metros lack of grade separation for most of its routes. I don't see that as a big issue in the least. Houston system is an urban system. People will moan and groan in the beginning because they are used to cars ruling the road and sharing it with pedestrians, transit and bikes are a foreign though to them. But I see light rail and trolleys sharing the street in cities all over the world. To me, the use of abandoned freight lines is the more peculiar set up. No one wants to live anywhere near freight lines so those areas are usually the least desirable areas if metros. And that is particularly true in the sprawling sunbelt metros where space is not a limitation
Dallaz is right that the use of abandoned rail lines was a cheap cop out. It was a quick and easy way to ramp up mileage and at the same time enable boosting of grade separation.
I saw light rail sharing the streets all over Europe and it was super convenient.
And I don't understand the hate for busses from DFW. Even London has a huge bus fleet. The awesomeness. Of London transit is that they have multiple options. In a city as dense as London, the buses are a bit trickier than rail, but I can imagine for locals who know the city better than visitors, the busses will be a snap to understand. I was forced to use the buses when there was an issue on a rail line, but It didn't take that much effort to get my bearings.
Dallas should have focused on the core and the rapid light rail extensions is half poor planning and half vanity. DART member cities just wanted it for having it sake and Dallas gets to brag about miles
agree with pretty much all of this. DART is pretty much a light rail version of MARTA however it doesn't go to where people want to go and where people are. That's why their ridership per mile has struggled. Meanwhile, Houston LRT system is pretty much a tram but it's an urban transit system. Metro in Houston realize two things in that the bus is the backbone of a transit system and you take care of your inner city first. Houston easily has the best bus system in Texas and one of the best in the South as a whole. I think only Miami barely has a higher ridership than Houston on the bus.
Also yes, Houston's University Line, if implemented, would have had the highest ridership in the system and probably the state. It easily gets over 70k at least if built because it will travel through growing dense areas already established, several universities, many job epicenters, and connect to Uptown. That should have been the second line built but politics and nimbys axed it. BRT is meh though. I understand it's cheaper but it's not the same as LRT. Though at the same time, LRT is not the same as HRT. DART or Metro will NEVER have a higher ridership than Marta.
Typical. Rather than address the substance, they always fall back on the style.
Cypress Waters along the Silver Line erupted out of no where! It has just about become another urban district like the Las Colinas Urban District both of them built around small lakes. That is just one of the stops. Addison is a mini downtown Dallas with 11 million square feet of office space. It is another stop on the line. Isn't there a line that stops at the University of Texas at Dallas?
If your argument is against commuter heavy rail, I agree. That kind of rail doesn't make sense anywhere but New York City. Then again, everyone is moving away from New York City.
Commuter Rail makes sense in plenty of cities which is why it's in those cities. Chicago, DC, and Philly are prime cities for commuter rail. Intercity heavy rail is even more useful in most cities and frankly, it is the better choice for Houston and Dallas over LRT but that's another topic.
Any kind of rail transit only makes sense when you have the potential ridership numbers to support the frequencies required to make it a viable option. I would put the minimum viable frequency at every 10 minutes.
Neither Houston nor Dallas has such numbers. My local DART stop has a Park and Ride lot across the street that is always empty. The train comes every 20 minutes and I've never seen anyone get on or off, despite the large number of apartment buildings within walking distance. That kind of frequency is as good as useless. It may as well not exist and there would be virtually no difference in the amount of traffic congestion.
I could use it to get to DFW Airport but by the time I drive myself to the Park and Ride, I could be pulling into the parking garage at the terminal. By the time the train shows up, I'd be through security and airside sipping a coffee in the lounge if I took an Uber or drove to the airport.
Last edited by albert648; 06-02-2023 at 09:06 PM..
Any kind of rail transit only makes sense when you have the potential ridership numbers to support the frequencies required to make it a viable option. I would put the minimum viable frequency at every 10 minutes.
Neither Houston nor Dallas has such numbers. My local DART stop has a Park and Ride lot across the street that is always empty. The train comes every 20 minutes and I've never seen anyone get on or off, despite the large number of apartment buildings within walking distance. That kind of frequency is as good as useless. It may as well not exist and there would be virtually no difference in the amount of traffic congestion.
I could use it to get to DFW Airport but by the time I drive myself to the Park and Ride, I could be pulling into the parking garage at the terminal. By the time the train shows up, I'd be through security and airside sipping a coffee in the lounge if I took an Uber or drove to the airport.
Dallas Fort-Worth is GROWING TRAMENDOUSLY...........All of these things being pointed out MEANS NOTHING!!!!!
People are acting like Dallas is STUCK where we are.......We will GROW out of these so-called problems.
Dallas is proactive and forward-thinking......Always have been!.......Nobody cares what people think today. Dallas is building and PREPARING for Dallas of 2050.
Dallas Fort-Worth is GROWING TRAMENDOUSLY...........All of these things being pointed out MEANS NOTHING!!!!!
People are acting like Dallas is STUCK where we are.......We will GROW out of these so-called problems.
Dallas is proactive and forward-thinking......Always have been!.......Nobody cares what people think today. Dallas is building and PREPARING for Dallas of 2050.
Take it or leave it!!!!!!
It's been half a century since DART was established. In that period of time, the population of DFW quadrupled.
If DART failed to capture market share in a market that grew 400%, it's never going to. Your growth projections mean absolutely nothing, they do NOT reflect consumer preference.
So keep funding DART out of your own pocket if you think it's a worthwhile venture.
It's been half a century since DART was established. In that period of time, the population of DFW quadrupled.
If DART failed to capture market share in a market that grew 400%, it's never going to. Your growth projections mean absolutely nothing, they do NOT reflect consumer preference.
So keep funding DART out of your own pocket if you think it's a worthwhile venture.
He keeps missing the point that the vast majority of sunbelt growth has been suburban. I won't praise or put down any city in this regard. It has been throughout. Very very few new residents have been to more dense areas in all Texas cities because those areas are still often more convenient with a car. So, if you are going to be driving anyway, why limit yourself?
The focus should have been on the pockets of density already developing and help them develop even more.
Focusing on downtown/ Uptown Dallas and all the surrounding areas would have made for an extremely car- independent core. From there , commuter lines from the core (whether bus or rail) could develop to connect suburban residents to the core.
Dallas's blessing is the richness of midsized cities all around it. But that blessing is also a curse. They help Dallas make it but also, their pride hinders Dallas from making. The blessing being that the collective enables Dallas to brag about having a million miles of rail. The curse being that the prideful nature of these suburban cities in not wanting to be left out hindered Dallas from solidifying it's core. Every member city wants its rail and they would rather not let Dallas make it before getting theirs.
Another issue is that DFW employment centers are well spread across the metro which results in less congested roads than Houston. With these employment centers we'll spread, and a massive highway system to serve the spread, DFW can gain 5M more people without a budge on DART’S ridership #s.
To increase DART’S ridership you are going to have to focus on TOD'S, but DART is adding rail miles faster than demand so it's ridership #s suffer.
There will always be demand for the sort of life offered by Uptown Dallas, but with the jobs growing to the west and to the north, there will be a greater demand for living near those areas.
Houston is not immune. Lots of jobs are heading in all directions, but the bullseye is still on Houston with the 3 biggest employment centers being downtown, TMC and Uptown and other top 10 markets like greenway are in the loop too.
It is easier for Houston to develop corridors of density because of the setup. The layout is there, but the hindrance is the affluent neighborhoods subliminal racial concerns and Republicans stirring up those concerns. Not gonna sugarcoat it, but white residents in Houston's core didn't want to make it easier for 'those' types of people to infiltrate their neighborhood.
Federal funding for rail was approved for Houston in the 90s but the Republicans blocked it and the Funding was transferred to Dallas. In 2003, Houstonians voted for rail expansion, but delay overrode the voters wishes and blocked tge expansion. The Bush administration for some reason blocked rail expansion in Houston for 5 years. It wasn't until Obama was elected that the ban was lifted, paving the way for 2 more rail lines. By then costs were super inflated and concerns about routes still existed.
Not sure if yall know this. But the Republicans in the US House of Representatives actually had a bill blocking rail in Houston. https://www.planetizen.com/node/4376
Despite local, state and national Republicans putting the squeeze on Houston while boosting Dallas, Houston still keeps trucking along. That's why I support Houston stronger than other Texas cities. I love an underdog.
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