Uptown Dallas vs. Uptown Houston (McKinney, Spring: buy, luxury, closing)

[atadytic19]

Originally Posted by Redlionjr

Gorgeous? I'm not gonna say it's ugly because it's not but gorgeous is not what I would use to describe Uptown Houston. Or an area full of cool buildings. That's just me though.

I wouldn't call it gorgeous either, but it is a huge improvement.

For me the street is still just too wide.

I think in a few decades when the tree cover matures the areas beauty will improve more.

[michaeltx9412]

Originally Posted by Redlionjr

Gorgeous? I'm not gonna say it's ugly because it's not but gorgeous is not what I would use to describe Uptown Houston. Or an area full of cool buildings. That's just me though.

Gorgeous is not the exact kind of word I'd use to describe it, either, but Uptown Houston looks cool in a very futuristic way, which I like. I used to be fascinated by the bracelet-shaped street signs over the intersection after seeing it for the first time. I don't think I've ever seen anything like that anywhere else.

[Dallaz]

Recent walking tour of a small portion of Uptown from July 2023. The Crescent, a portion of McKinney Ave, and State-Thomas. I hope in the near future the strip shopping center at 2:00 will be redeveloped. That's the largest "traditional" shopping center in Uptown. Though it does not have a huge parking lot, there's an underground level.

State-Thomas Historic District at 6:10 to 11:20

Whole Foods at 11:20


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MZuCzZ0gio&t=150s

Recent McKinney Ave drive from March 2023

1:19 to 1:30 was the planned CBRE HQ (including Truluck's and Gold's Gym sites) - 2401 McKinney it was put on hold recently

1:50 to 1:58 to the right is the planned 2626 McKinney boutique office building

2:00 to 2:05 to the right is the planned 19-story mixed use tower

2:41 past Oak Grove, McKinney and Cole Aves become one way to Knox-Henderson. There's a plan to convert them back to two way to slow down traffic and make it safer for pedestrians.

4:14 to 4:27 - old Albertsons/Minyard site that's planned to be a flagship Central Market with 800 units. They've taken their time trying to get this developed. This would be a major anchor store for the West Village and would've helped to boost the traffic even more. It's unfortunate how slow it has been going though.

5:20 is the end of Uptown



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lriJTSZYAXQ&t=310s

[Mr. Clutch]

One uptown has a Nando's, one doesn't. That's all I care about lol.

Nah but for real, these neighborhoods are VERY different but both very cool. I'm not sure which one I'd say is better. I really like them both.

[Dallaz]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clutch

One uptown has a Nando's, one doesn't. That's all I care about lol.

Nah but for real, these neighborhoods are VERY different but both very cool. I'm not sure which one I'd say is better. I really like them both.

They are. Uptown Dallas is basically purely new urbanist since the majority of what existed previously was scraped clean for redevelopment in the 80s and 90s. Uptown Houston was a fringe suburban commercial district that became consumed by suburban sprawl as the city developed around it. Now they're trying to make it more urban in form. It is kinda like Dallas’ Preston Center but on a much bigger scale. TBH in terms of how they're built, this VS should be with Preston Center.

[Redlionjr]

Originally Posted by atadytic19

I wouldn't call it gorgeous either, but it is a huge improvement.

For me the street is still just too wide.

I think in a few decades when the tree cover matures the areas beauty will improve more.

Yeah it's definitely a huge improvement no doubt. Aside from the wide streets there's some good bones there. Houston has what I call good bones to urbanize more in the core. Even though the Galleria/Uptown area is suburban in layout what's stopping it from becoming more walkable to a Rodeo drive? I mean I'm not expecting an exact replica of that area but considering they've made improvements already it's so much more potential there that can make it a true tourist friendly pedestrian destination. That's why I was so pissed when they downgraded to bus rapid transit instead of the light rail thanks in part to a certain party in Harris county. Houston has so much potential yet politicians and constituents just don't see it.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by Redlionjr

Yeah it's definitely a huge improvement no doubt. Aside from the wide streets there's some good bones there. Houston has what I call good bones to urbanize more in the core. Even though the Galleria/Uptown area is suburban in layout what's stopping it from becoming more walkable to a Rodeo drive? I mean I'm not expecting an exact replica of that area but considering they've made improvements already it's so much more potential there that can make it a true tourist friendly pedestrian destination. That's why I was so pissed when they downgraded to bus rapid transit instead of the light rail thanks in part to a certain party in Harris county. Houston has so much potential yet politicians and constituents just don't see it.

I'm not sure why you think the "downgrade" made a difference. Rubber tire vehicles vs. two-car rail trains is honestly the only real difference. The street layout, stations, etc. are basically identical, as is the service. And there's no caternary wire, which visually is cleaner.

Regarding evolution of the environment, it will take time, but there are already developments built which are headed in an urban walkable direction. Most notably, the Dinerstein mixed-use apartment tower at San Felipe and POB and the Zadok building next to the Hilton.

I would hope the McNair project (Rosewood Hotel etc.), if/when it even happens, will also take this form.

City regulations on setbacks, parking etc. have been altered so that doing more urban form along POB doesn't require the variances that it used to (and should never had required, honestly).

[atadytic19]

Originally Posted by Redlionjr

Yeah it's definitely a huge improvement no doubt. Aside from the wide streets there's some good bones there. Houston has what I call good bones to urbanize more in the core. Even though the Galleria/Uptown area is suburban in layout what's stopping it from becoming more walkable to a Rodeo drive? I mean I'm not expecting an exact replica of that area but considering they've made improvements already it's so much more potential there that can make it a true tourist friendly pedestrian destination. That's why I was so pissed when they downgraded to bus rapid transit instead of the light rail thanks in part to a certain party in Harris county. Houston has so much potential yet politicians and constituents just don't see it.

I can't imagine Post Oak developing to look anything like Rodeo Drive at all. Highland Village maybe, but I can't stretch my imagination enough to visualize Post Oak.

3898 Westheimer Rd
https://maps.app.goo.gl/UbqXnARnxySZQthTA

445 N Rodeo Dr
https://maps.app.goo.gl/4TSiv975bZCYhnpe8


It's not just that the streets are wide, the older developments with street facing parking lots are disappearing, but they are being replaced with more fortress like towers

1477 Post Oak Blvd
https://maps.app.goo.gl/1Xho3kAASsRPXDGJ9

Take this area ^^^ for example. It's a pretty picture. The towers are new and shiny, they are not just boxes, the sidewalks are lined with trees... pretty picture.

But the sidewalks are inadequate, there's lots of obstacles to navigate, and at a pedestrian level the buildings are so unwelcoming they look like a fortress.

Again, if looks so much better now, and I'm no longer scared to cross Post Oak, but I just don't see Rodeo Rodeo when I look at Post Oak.

I also think we can stop saying it is suburban in lay out. That no longer is true. There are still areas with street facing parking, but that's properties of lower use, it doesn't mean the entire street is suburban.


I agree that the Baby Boomer regulations have set the city back, but I don't have much of a problem with BRT vs light rail. The city is curing the development ills from the Boomer years, it's just that Houston is so huge its going to take decades to transform.

Just Uptown Houston alone is Huge, even though it has already transformed in the last 10 years.

[Norman54]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

I'm not sure why you think the "downgrade" made a difference. Rubber tire vehicles vs. two-car rail trains is honestly the only real difference. The street layout, stations, etc. are basically identical, as is the service. And there's no caternary wire, which visually is cleaner.

Regarding evolution of the environment, it will take time, but there are already developments built which are headed in an urban walkable direction. Most notably, the Dinerstein mixed-use apartment tower at San Felipe and POB and the Zadok building next to the Hilton.

I would hope the McNair project (Rosewood Hotel etc.), if/when it even happens, will also take this form.

City regulations on setbacks, parking etc. have been altered so that doing more urban form along POB doesn't require the variances that it used to (and should never had required, honestly).

If one looks at the question of "what is urban?" like a math problem, the first solution is to reduce down to the least common denominator. The philosophies of both the cities of Dallas and Fort Worth is making connections. The reason I think in terms of eight directions surrounding a square is that there are eight miles surrounding the square mile in the middle.
So, just make it easy for people to come mingle in the middle by creating as many connections as possible. If one makes it impossible, then they will just convert into suburbanites and remain where they are.
A good example of what I speak is how Dart chose to run their very first line south of downtown. It then turned to go westward running south of the zoo missing North Oak Cliff which already had lots of things going for it.
In other words, consider trying to avoid mucking up the existing retail by running the line the next street over perhaps.
Later, Dart ran a street car to North Oak Cliff. The elevated park over I-35 is meant to connect the north Oak Cliff with the zoo.

[Dallaz]

Originally Posted by Norman54

If one looks at the question of "what is urban?" like a math problem, the first solution is to reduce down to the least common denominator. The philosophies of both the cities of Dallas and Fort Worth is making connections. The reason I think in terms of eight directions surrounding a square is that there are eight miles surrounding the square mile in the middle.
So, just make it easy for people to come mingle in the middle by creating as many connections as possible. If one makes it impossible, then they will just convert into suburbanites and remain where they are.
A good example of what I speak is how Dart chose to run their very first line south of downtown. It then turned to go westward running south of the zoo missing North Oak Cliff which already had lots of things going for it.
In other words, consider trying to avoid mucking up the existing retail by running the line the next street over perhaps.
Later, Dart ran a street car to North Oak Cliff. The elevated park over I-35 is meant to connect the north Oak Cliff with the zoo.

That's how I generally look at it as well. That's why I often say, you don't need skyscrapers (even though I love them) to be urban. It's the streetscape that really determines that.

Houston is better at building skyscrapers and a lot them too. Dallas does a better job at building better streetscapes and connections to make a more complete urban neighborhood.