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LOL....you have it all wrong my friend. "Us guys" are not nutters sitting in a corner cowering with fear. We go by history and the train of events. "One who does not learn from history are condemned to repeat it." We question the narrative. Any "thinking" adult should do so. So for all intent and purposes. the whole computer crash or the Y2K debacle appeared to be a farce from the jump. Those with insight (or people you call conspiracy theorist) knew that from the jump. It was a no-brainer. "True thinkers" don't jump on every scheme put out there and roll with it. Mature, "thinking" adults don't do that. You can't assign every crackpot prediction to intelligent individuals who take their years of research seriously. I bet "back in the day" you would have been one of the main characters calling the Wright Brothers (who flew/designed the first airplane) conspiracy theorist or simply fools. What about Ben Franklin discovering electricity? I guess you would have bullied him to no end telling him "there's nothing there you idiot." What about Henry Ford.? I bet his goal to "manufacture automobiles for the multitudes" would have went right over your head because you have no vision. Henry Ford cut down the time to build an automobile from 12 hours to 2 hrs and 30 minutes with the invention of the assembly line because he had vision, he could see, he knew what was possible. People who you call "conspiracy theorist" (the ones who are true thinkers/realist) have vision and can SEE...we can take what's happening now and see its consequences..in real time. Something we don't take lightly.
The list is long of individuals that you would have deemed conspiracy theorist including people like Steve Jobs who had great vision. And how about the $1.5 billion ZipRecruiter just laying off hundreds "only days after" the CEO said the economy was headed for a steep increase in hiring after the end of the coronavirus. I, myself would have said this guy is "full of crap" if he believes that the economy was headed for a steep increase. Either he was trying to pull one over on his employees or simply wasn't going by the "facts" i.e. the evidence. The evidence said the opposite...but I bet you would have agreed with this foolishness and thought nothing of it. LOL Look...we're on COMPLETELY different pages.
Your inability to rationalize and take your head out of the sand is not my problem. What's happening NOW in "real time" is no joke. You can make light of it if you wish. If you believe that nearly the entire economy shutting down, the government issuing a stimulus package to prop up a failing economy (which won't work by the way), and a so-called murderous virus is all coincidental...then I feel sorry for you. There's no more reason for me to respond to you...And as I wrote to the other poster below...the term "conspiracy theorist" is being abused here. I prefer the word "realist." Good Luck
Everything you write here is nonsense. I have no need to rationalize my preconceptions as you do when I have the ability to analyze. I have enough knowledge of science to understand what is possible, what is probable and what is nonsense. I have enough experience in examining human nature to question the motives and the methods of people who would actually form conspiracies and those who would claim conspiracy without any evidence save a huge amount of paranoia. There is a huge difference between vision and fantasy.
Everything you write here is nonsense. I have no need to rationalize my preconceptions as you do when I have the ability to analyze. I have enough knowledge of science to understand what is possible, what is probable and what is nonsense. I have enough experience in examining human nature to question the motives and the methods of people who would actually form conspiracies and those who would claim conspiracy without any evidence save a huge amount of paranoia. There is a huge difference between vision and fantasy.
Analyse away... unfortunately history shows a pattern of behaviour which suggests there are examples of governments all across the world being involved in many things which are not to the benefit of the people they govern. By falling on the side of government you show a certain child-like belief and trust that your government will protect you from harm. It wont.
Analyse away... unfortunately history shows a pattern of behaviour which suggests there are examples of governments all across the world being involved in many things which are not to the benefit of the people they govern. By falling on the side of government you show a certain child-like belief and trust that your government will protect you from harm. It wont.
You have failed in your analysis when you claim I have done anything resembling "falling on the side of government." My only alignment is with facts. I don't deal in uncited and unsupported "pattern(s) of behavior," "examples of governments...being involved in Many things" or "not to the benefit of the people." I deal with evidence.
I have not seen one shred of such evidence to support the notion expressed in the title here that there might be a reason for suspicion of the virus or its widespread consequences.
Id love to hear you explain how ANY business out there (small, medium or large), can possibly survive this, (being shut down), with NO TIMELINE of any kind to re open?!!
Consider this, in the months before this virus, the stock market was VERY sensitive, Trump could make some outrageous statement and the market would loose 100s of points as a result...but now, we have basically the WHOLE world going thru a pandemic, businesses being shut down GLOBALLY....Im sorry, but realistically, the DOW should be no higher than about 5000 right now!!!
But there is a timeline to reopen - May 1st. Maybe that will shift, who knows. The stimulus package which includes a number of measures, not just a check, should help a number of large and small businesses survive. Some won't. You will also see new industries however.
Stock market is very sensitive yes. But remember the equities market is composed of both long term investors and speculators. Speculators, that react the each time Trump takes a crap, and also trading programs, are responsible for the sell off (and sudden buying that you saw the last few days) - looking for quick profits. But really, most investors are in for the long term. That's really what the equities market is for. There are buildings full of number cruncher geeks that know what will happen. Simply enough, they see the US and world economy recovering better and stronger than before.
You have to understand - your worldview and a few of the conspiracy theories here - economy collapsing and doom and gloom, Bill Gates and the Illuminati trying to cull mankind, zombies and bigfoot taking over the earth, whatever it is - these are minority views not shared by the more rational people.
But there is a timeline to reopen - May 1st. Maybe that will shift, who knows. The stimulus package which includes a number of measures, not just a check, should help a number of large and small businesses survive. Some won't. You will also see new industries however.
First, they are just making up dates that are based on nothing but hope. Certainly not data. Second, it's the federal distancing guidelines extended through April 30th which basically means nothing. It's the state and city lockdowns that have businesses closed and those have end dates all over the map and are not subject to federal guidelines. Trump can't unilaterally declare the economy is open. Third, most of the stimulus is in the form of small business loans. I would not, either as a business or an individual, be keen to take out ore loans without a clear path to pay them back. That's not relief. That's a noose.
"governments all across the world being involved in many things which are not to the benefit of the people"
FWIW, the nation is doing a lot better than I expected at this point in a long-running crisis, likely only because most businesses and individuals are just hunkering down and hoping they can wait it out and then resume business as usual in the next month or so. But many, many businesses, big and small, will not recover, will never reopen.
There's the obvious victims, high turnover industries like restaurants and fast food. Now that so many people have been broken of their daily Starbucks habit, I suspect a large portion will not go back.
My youngish hipster coworker was bragging on Zoom about figuring out how to make cold brew, and is now hunting eBay for nitro-chargers.
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Originally Posted by kokonutty
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20
Analyse away... unfortunately history shows a pattern of behaviour which suggests there are examples of governments all across the world being involved in many things which are not to the benefit of the people they govern. By falling on the side of government you show a certain child-like belief and trust that your government will protect you from harm. It wont.
You have failed in your analysis when you claim I have done anything resembling "falling on the side of government." My only alignment is with facts. I don't deal in uncited and unsupported "pattern(s) of behavior," "examples of governments...being involved in Many things" or "not to the benefit of the people." I deal with evidence.
I have not seen one shred of such evidence to support the notion expressed in the title here that there might be a reason for suspicion of the virus or its widespread consequences.
I've been on the inside of both major media and FedGov, and neither government nor media is nearly competent enough to execute the conspiracies attributed to them, much less keep such things secret for any duration.
I've literally sat in on meetings where the editor-in-chief held court to decide what was going to be on the front page the next day -- it was closer to a circus than a star chamber.
Id love to hear you explain how ANY business out there (small, medium or large), can possibly survive this, (being shut down), with NO TIMELINE of any kind to re open?!!
Consider this, in the months before this virus, the stock market was VERY sensitive, Trump could make some outrageous statement and the market would loose 100s of points as a result...but now, we have basically the WHOLE world going thru a pandemic, businesses being shut down GLOBALLY....Im sorry, but realistically, the DOW should be no higher than about 5000 right now!!!
First off I am not a public official so it is not my concern to make any plans on how any business can survive this. That is their, along with the business owners to figure out, not some some people sitting at home making up conspiracy theories. The idiots at home posting #s and doom and gloom should quit typing because not a single one of them have a clue.
There is no timeline because this has not happened to this extent in around 100 years. What I see now is the morons of the world are doing nothing but making it worse. I know you have to expect dumb things from dumb people. I would love to see every one of these conspiracy theory loons come back on here in one year and apologize for the crazy they are posting now and admit publicly they are wrong(like 99.999% of the time).
There are a lot of good people doing good things. Look them up instead of the silly conspiracy theories. I had 2 friends yesterday tell me they do not have to pay rent next month. The state I live in is setting up programs for grants, loans, and a combo of the 2 for business owners(under 500 employees) to keep paying their employees while they stay at home. They are many other good thing happening please look them up because they are real and really happening.
First, they are just making up dates that are based on nothing but hope. Certainly not data. Second, it's the federal distancing guidelines extended through April 30th which basically means nothing. It's the state and city lockdowns that have businesses closed and those have end dates all over the map and are not subject to federal guidelines. Trump can't unilaterally declare the economy is open. Third, most of the stimulus is in the form of small business loans. I would not, either as a business or an individual, be keen to take out ore loans without a clear path to pay them back. That's not relief. That's a noose.
You are misinforming the good people of this forum on several key points:
They aren't making up dates. April 30th date is based on data from medical experts on when the "curve" will peak and then flatten out based on scientific modeling. Now, the data may turn out to be incorrect, but it's the best data they have at this point.
Indeed the federal government has only issued guidelines on social distancing. The president had that option to make a federal requirement, he chose not to and left it up to local laws. Many states have no mandate, my state does not and again are just holding to guidelines and recommendations, and are looking for directions from federal government. Other states from what I can see pretty much align with the federal plan of May 1st - for example - Washington State schedule to open schools on April 27, Hawaii orders on no crowds gathering until April 30th, Kansas same order in place until April 19th, Louisiana April 30th. Other states have no expiration date. Trumps original plan was to have a risk assesment by region (state or county). That makes sense.
Stimulus plan has several provisions besides small business loans (which are forgivable if they follow certain guidelines listed below, something you conveniently forgot to add): For individuals we have:
Stimulus checks to citizens
Extension to unemployment benifits
Expansion of family leave
Mortgage relief
Student Loan relief
Easing of retirement plan withdrawel penalties For businesses we have:
Aforementioned $350 billion forgivable loan program (forgivable if small businesses do not lay off employees). That's $350,000,000,000.
A 50% refundable payroll tax credit on worker wages will further incentivize businesses, including ones with fewer than 500 employees, to retain workers
Looser net operating loss-reduction rules that will allow businesses to offset more
A delay in employer-side payroll taxes for Social Security until 2021 and 2022
Sole proprietors and other self-employed workers could be eligible for the expanded unemployment-insurance benefits the bill provides
A portion of the $425 billion in funds appropriated for the Federal Reserve’s credit facilities will also target small businesses
You are misinforming the good people of this forum on several key points:
They aren't making up dates. April 30th date is based on data from medical experts on when the "curve" will peak and then flatten out based on scientific modeling. Now, the data may turn out to be incorrect, but it's the best data they have at this point.
References? Everything I've heard from Dr. Fauci and others have called for a "peak" in deaths in early May. Note, a "peak" still means you could be having 90,000 new cases per day down from 100,000. It would take much longer to reach zero, if ever. This all started from a handful of cases so why wouldn't the spread simply resume once restrictions were lifted? How is it that a half dozen cases can explode to 160,000 in less than a month even with most public events closed but we can open things back up with tens of thousands of cases and it not spread anymore?
All these assistance programs sound good but good luck getting it done. I have several friends who have been calling for a week to get unemployment and get nothing but busy signals. They are simply not able to accomodate the crushing volume. We have never had a program that could handle millions of applications quickly.
They are making up dates in the sense that they know there is no way things can resume just because we have "peaked". They just know they can't tell people the truth and that it will take six months or more.
“I think the train wreck of this bill is going to be the unemployment insurance benefit, because it’s administered by state systems that are stuck in the '70s," he said, adding that he's hoping to move quickly on a fourth phase of stimulus.
But there is a timeline to reopen - May 1st. Maybe that will shift, who knows. The stimulus package which includes a number of measures, not just a check, should help a number of large and small businesses survive. Some won't. You will also see new industries however.
Stock market is very sensitive yes. But remember the equities market is composed of both long term investors and speculators. Speculators, that react the each time Trump takes a crap, and also trading programs, are responsible for the sell off (and sudden buying that you saw the last few days) - looking for quick profits. But really, most investors are in for the long term. That's really what the equities market is for. There are buildings full of number cruncher geeks that know what will happen. Simply enough, they see the US and world economy recovering better and stronger than before.
You have to understand - your worldview and a few of the conspiracy theories here - economy collapsing and doom and gloom, Bill Gates and the Illuminati trying to cull mankind, zombies and bigfoot taking over the earth, whatever it is - these are minority views not shared by the more rational people.
Where are you getting the May 1st date? Many states have extended it to June 10th now, and even that date is not guaranteed, they will 're evaluate' at that time.
This has nothing to do with Bill Gates, the Illuminati, bigfoot, aliens, etc...we are witnessing firsthand, the collapse of the economy and society in general, happening in stages, like dominoes falling, one thing impacts other many other things and so on and so on.
Dont get me wrong, I dont want to see a collapse any more than anyone else, but I can see whats happening around me.
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"True thinkers" don't jump on every scheme put out there and roll with it. Mature, "thinking" adults don't do that. You can't assign every crackpot prediction to intelligent individuals who take their years of research seriously. I bet "back in the day" you would have been one of the main characters calling the Wright Brothers (who flew/designed the first airplane) conspiracy theorist or simply fools. What about Ben Franklin discovering electricity? I guess you would have bullied him to no end telling him "there's nothing there you idiot." What about Henry Ford.? I bet his goal to "manufacture automobiles for the multitudes" would have went right over your head because you have no vision. Henry Ford cut down the time to build an automobile from 12 hours to 2 hrs and 30 minutes with the invention of the assembly line because he had vision, he could see, he knew what was possible. People who you call "conspiracy theorist" (the ones who are true thinkers/realist) have vision and can SEE...we can take what's happening now and see its consequences..in real time. Something we don't take lightly. 
"governments all across the world being involved in many things which are not to the benefit of the people"
