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Rather than saying "it's not my thing, but lot of folks live there and seem to like it," it's more like some sort of vendetta or bad blood or sour grapes or something of that nature.
And here we go with this again. The only vendetta against your precious UT County is in your head. We ARE saying just what you keep claiming we should say yet here you are, angry and complaining yet again everyone isn't "living the fairytale" and only stating perceived positives about this area.
I must say I'm baffled. I really do not understand this sort of comment that shows up quite often here. Where are you finding this "competition" that you speak of? Makes no sense. What are you people doing to get this impression in the Provo area? I'm not trying to contentious, but I honestly do not understand it.
Seriously, I could go on and on about the negative "vibes" I get in SLC and how I don't feel safe when I go to the SLC area. But I won't. I simply never go to SLC unless forced to do so for work or whatever. And I really don't say much about the area. Obviously some folks like it or they wouldn't be there. I would expect a similar attitude about the Provo area, but that's never the case. Rather than saying "it's not my thing, but lot of folks live there and seem to like it," it's more like some sort of vendetta or bad blood or sour grapes or something of that nature. If you don't like something or some place, that's fine. We are all different people. But to declare to the world that "you will never like XXX," is being rather arrogant. Let people find out for themselves (as I did about 30 years ago that I didn't like the SLC area), and leave it at that.
CDF is set up among other reasons for people who are contemplating a move to a city, county, state to be able to get opinions from others about that area. The key word here is "opinions". I have opinions about Utah County even though I admit I have never lived there. My opinions are formed by much more than simply reading the newspaper or reading posts from others here on CDF. My sister attended BYU and I frequently visited her at that time. I have friends who live in Provo/Orem area. I have patronized many businesses in Lehi/American Fork/Orem/Provo. I drive through the area routinely on my way to St. George and other locations south. I have also spoken to many other LDS people over the years, including BYU graduates. I also know a great deal about the demographics of Utah. I know a lot about the prevalence of racial groups and religions. I understand much about the politics of the area. I understand the geography of the state and its effect on lifestyle.
While I may not live in the Utah County area, I feel competent to offer basic opinions about it. It is of some comfort to me that most of my opinions are shared by a majority of those who comment here.
Any non-Mormon moving here from out-of-state should realize that the area is heavily LDS. More so, than the Salt Lake area is. They should understand that LDS attitudes toward alcohol are negative and the heavier the percentage of LDS people there is an area, the more aversion there is to alcohol. I think knowing that the county may have a higher percentage of vote for Republican candidates for elective office than any other county in the United States is something most people would at least want to know.
When it comes down to it, the only person I could recommend Utah County too, would be active, practicing Latter Day Saint, preferably not single, and with a family.
If I'm wrong, so be it. That's my opinion and that of a majority of others here. Some state it more strongly than others do.
CDF is set up among other reasons for people who are contemplating a move to a city, county, state to be able to get opinions from others about that area. The key word here is "opinions". I have opinions about Utah County even though I admit I have never lived there. My opinions are formed by much more than simply reading the newspaper or reading posts from others here on CDF. My sister attended BYU and I frequently visited her at that time. I have friends who live in Provo/Orem area. I have patronized many businesses in Lehi/American Fork/Orem/Provo. I drive through the area routinely on my way to St. George and other locations south. I have also spoken to many other LDS people over the years, including BYU graduates. I also know a great deal about the demographics of Utah. I know a lot about the prevalence of racial groups and religions. I understand much about the politics of the area. I understand the geography of the state and its effect on lifestyle.
While I may not live in the Utah County area, I feel competent to offer basic opinions about it. It is of some comfort to me that most of my opinions are shared by a majority of those who comment here.
Any non-Mormon moving here from out-of-state should realize that the area is heavily LDS. More so, than the Salt Lake area is. They should understand that LDS attitudes toward alcohol are negative and the heavier the percentage of LDS people there is an area, the more aversion there is to alcohol. I think knowing that the county may have a higher percentage of vote for Republican candidates for elective office than any other county in the United States is something most people would at least want to know.
When it comes down to it, the only person I could recommend Utah County too, would be active, practicing Latter Day Saint, preferably not single, and with a family.
If I'm wrong, so be it. That's my opinion and that of a majority of others here. Some state it more strongly than others do.
Some people seem to be of the attitude that any UT County discussion should be nothing but blowing sunshine and lollipops and any criticism of the area is to be either ignored or has to be the person experiencing the issues fault. I would say it is odd, but it fits in with UT County Authoritarianism perfectly actually.
And that is the crux, and the bottomline. If you want to live somewhere where everyone dresses alike, looks alike, talks alike and is spoonfed identical bills, where cost of living is extraordinarily high and wages are extraordinarily low, down to 1970's levels, where there is one "Culture" and your only option is to conform or regularly be harassed then Utah County is the place! If you love draconian laws and ordinances it is the place to be. If you love censorship and having people shove their views down your throat it's the place to be.
For the other 99% of America you would probably prefer Salt Lake City, or to just not come here.
Or maybe the millions of people who have come here and left with the above mindset are all the issue and this is actually super secretly Heaven on Earth?
I must say I'm baffled. I really do not understand this sort of comment that shows up quite often here. Where are you finding this "competition" that you speak of? Makes no sense. What are you people doing to get this impression in the Provo area? I'm not trying to contentious, but I honestly do not understand it.
Seriously, I could go on and on about the negative "vibes" I get in SLC and how I don't feel safe when I go to the SLC area. But I won't. I simply never go to SLC unless forced to do so for work or whatever. And I really don't say much about the area. Obviously some folks like it or they wouldn't be there. I would expect a similar attitude about the Provo area, but that's never the case. Rather than saying "it's not my thing, but lot of folks live there and seem to like it," it's more like some sort of vendetta or bad blood or sour grapes or something of that nature. If you don't like something or some place, that's fine. We are all different people. But to declare to the world that "you will never like XXX," is being rather arrogant. Let people find out for themselves (as I did about 30 years ago that I didn't like the SLC area), and leave it at that.
People moving across the country to a new area need to know the pros and cons of their planned move to a particular spot. Sugar coating and being PC is exactly what they don't need. That doesn't help and sets them up for failure.
And negative vibes about SLC and not feeling safe? Considering SLC doesn't have high crime and no true ghetto, I find this hysterically funny.
OP, I don't have a lot to add that many haven't already said as far as negatives and positives go other than this. The SLC/Provo/Ogden area, despite SLC being more liberal these days and the most liberal place in Utah, it still a bubble. News, pop culture, etc Although I moved here sight unseen, I would highly recommend you visit before just arriving here. I don't think SLC is a bad city, but it's not for every one. And AZcards is right, I'm originally from Mississippi and moved here from Texas. The conservatism here is different than the type down south.
This is surely one of the oddest comments I've read on this board. Makes me wonder where else you've ever been other than where you are now. You'd be doing us a service by elaborating.
Since we seem to be needing a show and tell to prove we are a "real" person, here you go, sir:
I grew up in the bay area of California. I came here with my family as a young teen. I spent about six years travelling the US and the Far East (Korea, Japan, Philippines, etc) as a professional musician. I lived briefly in Lima, Peru. And very briefly in the Phoenix area of Arizona. So it's not like I've never been out of the county. It is true, however, that the past few years I have not travelled much. Too much of a hassle.
So there is your "service." Happy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZCards
And here we go with this again. The only vendetta against your precious UT County is in your head. We ARE saying just what you keep claiming we should say yet here you are, angry and complaining yet again everyone isn't "living the fairytale" and only stating perceived positives about this area.
Can you show me where I've said much of anything positive about Utah County? What I have said is that I've never really experienced or seen this "fairytale" thing here. I simply do not get the negativism because all I read is a bunch of hand-waving and nothing concrete. Not that I really want to defend the area, but it's impossible anyway, where there are no specifics given. Show me the inquisitions. Show me the witches burning on the Utah County courthouse lawn.
The problem is, what I perceive here (with these posts) is something of a witchhunt in reverse. Folks in Utah County are horrible monsters, but nobody ever quite says why, other than vague "fairytale" and "competition" references. And that they happen to be evil mormons.
Ultimately, I'm not defending Utah County. I'm countering what I feel to be unfair (and vague at that) accusations. I can't argue for everyone else here, but I can say that it does tick me off to be pigeon-holed. Of course, I suppose it's not surprising, as it is the way of our species to condemn others based on race, religion, nationality, etc... and of course, being a resident of Utah County.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
CDF is set up among other reasons for people who are contemplating a move to a city, county, state to be able to get opinions from others about that area. The key word here is "opinions". I have opinions about Utah County even though I admit I have never lived there. My opinions are formed by much more than simply reading the newspaper or reading posts from others here on CDF. My sister attended BYU and I frequently visited her at that time. I have friends who live in Provo/Orem area. I have patronized many businesses in Lehi/American Fork/Orem/Provo. I drive through the area routinely on my way to St. George and other locations south. I have also spoken to many other LDS people over the years, including BYU graduates. I also know a great deal about the demographics of Utah. I know a lot about the prevalence of racial groups and religions. I understand much about the politics of the area. I understand the geography of the state and its effect on lifestyle.
While I may not live in the Utah County area, I feel competent to offer basic opinions about it. It is of some comfort to me that most of my opinions are shared by a majority of those who comment here.
Any non-Mormon moving here from out-of-state should realize that the area is heavily LDS. More so, than the Salt Lake area is. They should understand that LDS attitudes toward alcohol are negative and the heavier the percentage of LDS people there is an area, the more aversion there is to alcohol. I think knowing that the county may have a higher percentage of vote for Republican candidates for elective office than any other county in the United States is something most people would at least want to know.
When it comes down to it, the only person I could recommend Utah County too, would be active, practicing Latter Day Saint, preferably not single, and with a family.
If I'm wrong, so be it. That's my opinion and that of a majority of others here. Some state it more strongly than others do.
The problem is, I see most of the comments about Utah County as sour grapes sorts of posts. It's horrible. That's it. Case Closed. And it's horrible for everyone.
Of course we are all entitled to express opinion. That's what the forums are for. But, I haven't been on this Utah forum much for a long time, mainly because all I ever see are Utah County bashing threads. Ever wonder why this particular forum isn't that active compared to others? And it's not just Utah County that gets bashed here constantly. It's anywhere in the state except SLC and possibly Park City, Moab, and St. George. The rest of the state is skewered on this forum regularly. I simply do not feel it's fair. So when I do visit here (which I really shouldn't), I feel that someone should offer another perspective before another Utah town is burned at the stake.
Why don't you give me your impression of Delta, Fillmore, Milford, Richfield, Minersville, Circleville, Huntington, Castledale, Emery, Hanksville, Blanding, Vernal, Ephraim, Fairview, Gunnison, Manti, Price, Duchesne, Roosevelt, East Carbon, Monticello, Park River, etc, etc? I'll venture to say that your opinion of them is largely negative. And to me, these are the places that make Utah Utah. This is Utah. NOT the SLC valley and NOT Utah Valley. I've been to all of these places many times over the years, some of them regularly. These are the places in Utah about which I actually do have good things to say. What do you want to bet that the others on the forum who regularly bash Utah County would have even worse things to say about most any of these places?
I suspect it's simply the old "friction" between traditional ruralism and modern urbanism, and Utah County is just caught somewhere in the middle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZCards
Some people seem to be of the attitude that any UT County discussion should be nothing but blowing sunshine and lollipops and any criticism of the area is to be either ignored or has to be the person experiencing the issues fault. I would say it is odd, but it fits in with UT County Authoritarianism perfectly actually.
And that is the crux, and the bottomline. If you want to live somewhere where everyone dresses alike, looks alike, talks alike and is spoonfed identical bills, where cost of living is extraordinarily high and wages are extraordinarily low, down to 1970's levels, where there is one "Culture" and your only option is to conform or regularly be harassed then Utah County is the place! If you love draconian laws and ordinances it is the place to be. If you love censorship and having people shove their views down your throat it's the place to be.
For the other 99% of America you would probably prefer Salt Lake City, or to just not come here.
Or maybe the millions of people who have come here and left with the above mindset are all the issue and this is actually super secretly Heaven on Earth?
So you are telling me that the US Constitution and Bill of Rights do not apply in Utah County? Can you show me a case where a person was doing something legal under US law and was taken into custody by the local police? (other than by accident). What is it that you want to do that you cannot do in the area? If you are talking about drinking (for instance), I can tell you right now that you are incorrect. I've played music in bars and clubs down here for nearly 35 years. Plenty of drinking and "partying" going on if that's your thing. Other than that, I can't imagine what you are referring to. If you are talking about illegal activities... well I wouldn't call the crackdown on that sort of thing "authoritarian." What are these "draconian laws," specifically? I'm very curious.
I'm a libertarian (probably on the far "liberty" end of the libertarian spectrum). I'm not part of the "mormon culture." I've never felt repressed here. I've never had a problem being able to do anything I please. I respect others' rights to live their lives as they see fit as long as they are not negatively affecting my right to do the same. If they wish to be part of a "dominant culture," that is their business and I respect that. It's not my business.
I will say this with regards to your comments: I do prefer one "culture" in an area (even if it's not my own "culture). I find that to make local living much easier and less contentious. That's one reason I'm moving to northeastern North Dakota in the future. It's a rural, traditional, "culture" and not likely to change anytime soon as it has around the SLC and Utah County area. I would far prefer the way Utah County was in the early 1970s as to the way it is today, and remember, I came from California and not LDS. I found life so much more pleasant that it was in San Jose. We moved directly from the city to a farm down a dirt road 10 miles out of a small town (at the time). Fresh air. Open fields. Few people. Few cars. Even liked riding my horse back then, and SURPRISE, I never got ran over! As John Denver sang, "sunshine on my shoulder." Life was good back then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ankhharu
People moving across the country to a new area need to know the pros and cons of their planned move to a particular spot. .
Very true. But do they need to read only negative comments? Because that is certainly what they get here. Is that what you would call "diverse" opinions? You are for "diversity," right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ankhharu
And negative vibes about SLC and not feeling safe? Considering SLC doesn't have high crime and no true ghetto, I find this hysterically funny.
And how is the crime rate compared to say, Emery or Delta, Utah?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ankhharu
OP, I don't have a lot to add that many haven't already said as far as negatives and positives go other than this. The SLC/Provo/Ogden area, despite SLC being more liberal these days and the most liberal place in Utah, it still a bubble. News, pop culture, etc Although I moved here sight unseen, I would highly recommend you visit before just arriving here. I don't think SLC is a bad city, but it's not for every one. And AZcards is right, I'm originally from Mississippi and moved here from Texas. The conservatism here is different than the type down south
As I've mentioned before, it's exactly our opposing philosophies that mandate our opposite opinions of Utah County or SLC. It's exactly the things that you like about SLC that I don't like and visa-versa for Utah County. And the thing is, I know I'm not the only person in the world who feels that way.
As a bottom line, I will say this: if I were living somewhere else and contemplating moving to Utah County, there is no way I would do so. But NOT for any of the perceived reasons you guys bring up. My reason would be that it is getting way too much like SLC. It will soon be one and the same. Anyone cherishing peace, quiet, solitude, open spaces, nature, small town/rural feel, lack of cars and townhouses and box stores and fast food dives and constant chaos and hustle-bustle, will not like it here at all.
And again, I will say that the only way Person A will know if he/she likes an area is to stay there for an extended time himself/herself. Take everything said on forums like this for what they are... OPINIONS. I was told by nearly everyone that I would not like the area where I bought a patch of land in ND. Not ONE positive comment here on CD. But guess what? I love it and can't wait to get there. I'm sure that many of the people you are discouraging from moving to Utah County would find it to be ideal for them. You see... we are all different. From your own posts and comments, nearly every one of you naysayers are very liberal and very big-city-centered. Do you think everyone is? Seriously? In many cases, that's exactly what folks are trying to escape.
I will now go and try to find some positive comments about Utah Valley here on CD Forums. I suspect, however, that they are as scarce as hen's teeth in comparison to the negative comments. Seriously, you guys remind me of circling vultures.
Can you show me where I've said much of anything positive about Utah County? What I have said is that I've never really experienced or seen this "fairytale" thing here. I simply do not get the negativism because all I read is a bunch of hand-waving and nothing concrete. Not that I really want to defend the area, but it's impossible anyway, where there are no specifics given. Show me the inquisitions. Show me the witches burning on the Utah County courthouse lawn.
The problem is, what I perceive here (with these posts) is something of a witchhunt in reverse. Folks in Utah County are horrible monsters, but nobody ever quite says why, other than vague "fairytale" and "competition" references. And that they happen to be evil mormons.
I've brought up issues as have others, your counter every time is to either ignore them or state, for a fact, it is everyone else that is at fault and that we are on a "witch hunt." Should I go point by point? THEN will you actually discourse without sniping at those of us seeing the area as it is?
- The Wages are incredibly low, so low some $80,000 jobs elsewhere pay $28,000 here. The wages are some of the absolute worst in the Nation.
- There isn't an actual legitimate Economic model in UT County, it's 90% MLM garbage, scamming the "Gentiles."
- The wages are artificially stagnated and kept low instead of letting the market decide.
- The rampant Welfare abuse, walk into any DWS Office in UT Co. and you'll see countless SUV driving Soccer Moms in their $200 Mod Bod costumes and 5 kids in tow waiting in line for us taxpayers to pay for the kids they cannot afford to have. According to a BYU Employee I am related to the encouragement starts with the Counselors there instructing Students on how to game the system.
- There is rampant homelessness in Provo/Orem as well as Pan Handlers. You cannot even go around the East Bay area without drug addict vagrants begging you for meth money, the Cops just walk by allowing it.
- The Freeway system sucks, the Cities are miles from the Freeway(which can be okay) yet the exits are 3-6 miles apart. It makes getting to work horrible at times, especially with Utah drivers.
- Utah drivers. 'Nuff said.
- The people are rude. I am sure it is completely my fault that they are, but they are nontheless. I could rehash how my first week here I was accosted by the rednecks of S. Utah county finding reasons to walk over to me anytime I came home from Work to tell me the days reason why Arizona sucks and how Utah is better. Seriously, this went on for several months. I've detailed how out of three moves everyone has been so "nice", coming over to hand my wife and I step by step directions of where the Ward is, who their Bishop is, when it begins and where it is located.... And then quickly turn to ignoring us after the 2nd week of not showing up. We personally have had our landlord violate our privacy(he swears he didn't) by giving HIS Bishop(not mine) my name and phone number. That is a violation of my privacy, but okay. The drivers are rude, the people are rude(I guess that's my fault, I am used to when I smile or say excuse me to move out of their way, or smile at a neighbor or act like a human being I expect the same in return instead of glares or having the kindness ignore) and it is what it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC
So you are telling me that the US Constitution and Bill of Rights do not apply in Utah County? Can you show me a case where a person was doing something legal under US law and was taken into custody by the local police? (other than by accident). What is it that you want to do that you cannot do in the area?
You're kidding, right? Currently there's a fight going in Orem to ban T-Shirts and billboards featuring Females in Bikinis being displayed, there is an active fight, recently in the news by a BYU housewife to ban Comso Magazine from being sold in all of Utah, the required blue covers over any Magazines featuring humans, banning Music groups from coming here in the 1990's for 1st Amendment violations and of course the violating Federal Laws regarding discussing Religion in the workplace, Federal Housing Guidelines(you're not allowed to segregate Apartments based on Race, Gender, Marital Status ect)
Oh and a UT Politician recently admitted he confers with the "Apostles" before setting Government Policy, violating the Separation of Church and State and fully admitting on record Utah is running as a Theocracy which violates the Constitution of the United States of America.
I could go on and on with the Governmental Issues, if you were a Libertarian as you say you would already be well aware of the Anti-American Gov't set up and I wouldn't need to detail every last aspect of it as you make apologies for it and spin it.
Is that good enough? Or do I need to continue? Or will you just ignore this one as well and go back to saying anyone with a problem is at fault?
I must say I'm baffled. I really do not understand this sort of comment that shows up quite often here. Where are you finding this "competition" that you speak of? Makes no sense. What are you people doing to get this impression in the Provo area? I'm not trying to contentious, but I honestly do not understand it.
What do I mean by competition? Well for starters ChrisC why don't you take a look at the neighborhood I grew up in, near Palisades Drive and Center street in Orem....People making $60k-$80k a year living in $400k+ houses, $150k boats sitting in front of their houses, $30k Harley Davidsons, sports cars, trophy wives, the whole bit. No it's not in my head because this was my mom's ward and I knew many of these people and what they did for a living. When one person came home with a toy, the next week his neighbor had a better version of that toy. You wonder why Utah has a high rate of Bankruptcies.....
Or we could look at my friend who works at Board of Provo making $9/hour getting tempted to go into debt for a Harley because all the other guys that work at BOP got 20% interest loans to buy their Harley's.
I went to college in Utah County, I was immersed in the college life there for years, I couldn't tell you how many students I met who were there on their parents dime, driving brand new cars, getting credit cards with an allowance higher than what I made at home depot in a year, and just showing it off. It was sickening.
Or we could talk about my high school friend who's parents tried to bribe him to go on a mission with a brand new car so that they could gloat about what great parents they were for having kids go on missions. It worked for his older brother, who came home and was sleeping with girls and getting high within a week....
Dude I could go ON and ON, but it doesn't matter, to each his own. If you want to live in Tw@t-Ville, be my guest, I think for myself and try to not judge people who are different than me so I don't fit in there.
Last edited by kimc53ssz28; 02-17-2015 at 12:27 PM..
Welcome to the Forums! I will try to address your questions to the best of my ability.
1: Mixed Race Relations. My wife and I are similar to you and yours, I am very Scandinavian, she is very Mexican.we haven't seen any violent racism or the like here, although we have experienced quite a bit of overt racism. Mostly dirty looks. Surprisingly for us my Wife gets quite a bit of glares and attitude from Latinos when she's with me. I will warn you, if your husband is pretty clean cut and could be mistake. FOR an RM(Returned Missionary) he WILL get asked pretty often if he met you on his Mission and "brought you back." Likewise you will probably get plenty of people asking you the same and if he converted you to the LDS Church. Not really 24/7 but it will happen quite a bit. There is also plenty of non racial discrimination in the area.
2: The Religious aspects. You wanted to know about being hassled all the time. Apologists will tell you no, however the answer is yes, yes you will. Whenever you move in and anywhere you move in the area supposedly "nice" people will quickly start shoving Church info, address, schedule, Bishops name in your hands expecting you to show up. Once you opt not to the niceness will fade into a distancing from you. Likewise you can expect the Bishop, Missionaries ext to periodically disturb your evening in an attempt to pressure you into attending. Co-workers will likely also violate Federal Laws and discuss it as will bosses. Unfortunately Provo Culture Andrew LDS Church ARE one and the same and there exists an incredible pressure to conform and join. If you don't join yes people will judge you badly based on it.
3: The supposed "Conservatism." The area and people aren't Conservative in the way you're thinking. Utah is a Religious Theocracy and the stupidity in the Laws and regulations go beyond just drinking alcohol. I get the sense you're thinking Politically Conservative in a Texas or Arizona sort of way. It's really not like that at all here. Although most people in Provo do vote Republican it's mainly for Abortion and Gay Marraige issues. The area is more "Conservative" in an Afghanistan or Iran sort of way.
4: Taxes. For a place that dumps little money into much of anything the taxes are higher than many places and there's plenty of taxation. Meanwhile the roads remain filled with potholes and poorly designed. There is a strong Welfare Culture in the area which might be why the roads are trash.
5: what do you do for a living? Your husband? Be forewarned, the biggest industry in the area is MLM scams and caller centers a close 2nd. In fact without the MLM scams being based out of the area unemployment would be well over 20%. The 3rd biggest industry is working as a temp. Also be warned the wages are so e of the lowest in the Nation. They're stagnated at a 1975 level permanently, even with a supposed 1.9% unemployment rate the wages are artificially kept low. And before anyone tries to rationalize, no the cost of living here IS NOT low. It is just as high as Phoenix or Vegas or many parts of Florida.
6: Poverty and homelessness. Unfortunately there is a big homeless problem in Provo. Spend time out and about and you will have to deal with panhandlers and drug addicts accosting you for money. Do t expect the lazy taxpayer drain called Provo PD to do anything about it, either.
7: Rudeness. People here are in general more rude then most of the U.S. Good manners and respect are in short supply. There is an air of obnoxious entitlement and pretension. Less so south of Provo, but Provo north to Lehi is pretty bad.
That's some of the bad stuff. The good? The Mountains are kind of nice, not as great as the locals talk it up as but they are alright, there are some Outdoor activities, Salt Lake has some decent things to do and it's only a few hours drive to get outa here for a break. I say this as an LDS person who moved here from out of state, I would look elsewhere to live if I were doing it over. Provo is horrible. Everything and every aspect of the area revolves around Church, it is very oppressive and in my opinion you would find what you're looking for, which is similar to what my wife and I are looking for in TX, AZ or Idaho moreso than here. Btw I responded on my phone so any spelling errors or words that are wrong is due to that and I opologize.
move to Los Angeles. You sound like you are miserable in Utah. I stop taking you serious when you wrote:
Quote:
People here are in general more rude then most of the U.S.
Really? I'm Puerto Rican, a U.S. CITIZEN since Puerto Rico has been a U.S. Territory since 1898, in case you didn't know. I have lived in New York, New Jersey, Chicago and Miami and Utah is the nicest state I have ever lived in terms of how nice the people are and how clean compare to the East Coast.
Now you want to get dirty looks, try going to an ALL BLACK school in Miami or Chicago or black neighborhood being light skin and see how many dirty looks you get or try to date a black man or black woman when you are not one of them and see the hostility, its more than dirty looks. Utah and especially Leave it to Beaver town Provo ain't nothing.
What do I mean by competition? Well for starters ChrisC why don't you take a look at the neighborhood I grew up in, near Palisades Drive and Center street in Orem....People making $60k-$80k a year living in $400k+ houses, $150k boats sitting in front of their houses, $30k Harley Davidsons, sports cars, trophy wives, the whole bit. No it's not in my head because this was my mom's ward and I knew many of these people and what they did for a living. When one person came home with a toy, the next week his neighbor had a better version of that toy. You wonder why Utah has a high rate of Bankruptcies.....
Or we could look at my friend who works at Board of Provo making $9/hour getting tempted to go into debt for a Harley because all the other guys that work at BOP got 20% interest loans to buy their Harley's.
I went to college in Utah County, I was immersed in the college life there for years, I couldn't tell you how many students I met who were there on their parents dime, driving brand new cars, getting credit cards with an allowance higher than what I made at home depot in a year, and just showing it off. It was sickening.
Or we could talk about my high school friend who's parents tried to bribe him to go on a mission with a brand new car so that they could gloat about what great parents they were for having kids go on missions. It worked for his older brother, who came home and was sleeping with girls and getting high within a week....
Dude I could go ON and ON, but it doesn't matter, to each his own. If you want to live in Tw@t-Ville, be my guest, I think for myself and try to not judge people who are different than me so I don't fit in there.
That last sentence is priceless after your "judgement" in the entire post above. Try not to judge? Your whole post is a judgement.
Now let me judge a bit as well: you are describing "snobs." I have no great love for them either. But they are not hurting me by doing their thing, even if I think its silly. See, I choose not to engage in that sort of lifestyle. So I've never had a problem with it. If I'm surrounded by rich people and I'm not rich, why should I care? You sound a little like a compulsive gambler living in Las Vegas. But you have done the right thing and moved away. On the other hand, a non-cumpulsive gambler would probably have no issues with all the gambling going on around him/her in Las Vegas.
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