Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > District of Columbia > Washington, DC
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-21-2013, 12:53 PM
 
349 posts, read 990,363 times
Reputation: 332

Advertisements

Richard Florida Concedes the Limits of the Creative Class - The Daily Beast
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-21-2013, 01:05 PM
 
465 posts, read 928,139 times
Reputation: 285
DC is the last city on earth when I think of creative. The few artsy people I know are making livings doing actual work (graphic design for companies and the government). The article seems to be whining that these "hipsters" don't pass on their money to the community. Except they do because all the government services that the poor use (including the police) are funded by higher income people.

Sorry if not stabbing people makes property values go up?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-21-2013, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
115 posts, read 273,590 times
Reputation: 76
Yes!!! Hipsters!!! My favorite topic, other than cyclists.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-21-2013, 06:17 PM
 
Location: London, NYC, DC
1,118 posts, read 2,286,443 times
Reputation: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis18708 View Post
Yes!!! Hipsters!!! My favorite topic, other than cyclists.
There's a difference?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-21-2013, 06:29 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,554 posts, read 28,636,675 times
Reputation: 25126
So ... hipsters were supposed to remake America's cities? Wow, I had no idea that's what it was all about. Who would've thunk?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-21-2013, 07:17 PM
 
11,155 posts, read 15,702,097 times
Reputation: 4209
Your premise is misinformed because you use the low-hanging fruit of hipster and equate it to "creative class", which is wrong. Jokestars fell for it, too.

Creative class isn't necessarily artists. It just means professionals, from engineers to analysts. If you have an office job and a college degree, more than likely you're creative class. You probably don't need a haircut, either.

DC and all the suburbs rebuilding themselves into cities are prime examples of professionals revitalizing and creating cities due to their demand for walkable centers over subdivisions, even as they mature into families. Obviously there are both good and bad that come with it, but this article is quite mistaken in its premise.

The rebuttal discredits the article thoroughly enough:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...el-kotkin.html
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-21-2013, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC
2,010 posts, read 3,458,006 times
Reputation: 1375
I don't know where the boundaries of the term 'hipster' end on this forum.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-21-2013, 09:28 PM
 
465 posts, read 928,139 times
Reputation: 285
Hipster's definition has been butchered by fools who think it's any young non-black person in DC.

Hipsters look like this: http://www.shillingtondesignblog.com...pster%201.jpeg


DC has a fairly weak hipster scene compared to NYC and Cali.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2013, 12:10 AM
 
999 posts, read 2,010,678 times
Reputation: 1200
The Kotkin article points out that the hip, professional, artist class hasn't "trickled-down" its wealth to lower socio-economic class in terms of jobs creation. In many cities, the urban creative class is not enough to revive the city's economy.

Florida comes up short each time because he doesn't know how to address the inequality issue. So, wait ONLY professional creative types want public transit, bike lanes, grocery stores, pharmacies and restaurants within walking distance? I bet many poor people want those things too but they cannot participate in the New Urban lifestyle because they have been priced out of the real estate prices by these same creative class types.

As a member of The Left, I appreciate the shout-out from Florida here. Here are Florida's words below:

"This is something that lots of people (not Kotkin, mainly my critics on the left) like to make assertions about, but on which there was little if any detailed empirical research. Here is what we found: • First, a high share of skills, creativity, and knowledge do lift the wages of every class or group of workers—creative, service, and blue collar alike.
• Second, every group does better in bigger, denser cities—wages are higher overall and for each of the classes.
• But third (and here’s the rub), the picture is different when housing costs are taken into account. Housing costs are much higher in bigger, denser, more affluent cities—as Ryan Avent and Matt Yglesias have also noticed—because they lack sufficient supply to meet demand. Creative-class wages are high enough to make up for the higher housing costs, but not working- and service-class wages. Though their wage gains are real, they are not enough to cover their higher housing costs."


First point, the higher density of creative class types you have in a city, the GREATER the income inequality. If a working or service class makes an additional 10 cents from a recent job hire, the creative class manager will make at least 90 cents more in terms of wage rate growth. Creative class types reward each other far generously than the non-college degree, blue-color person below him.



Also, because the creative class earn much higher incomes, the price of EVERYTHING goes up in the city: Housing, dining, parking, buying food at the grocery store. The price inflation does far more damage to lower-class wages.



You know, I laugh at the limited housing supply argument. There are so many apartment complexes in some of the trendiest, hippest neighborhoods in DC and Arlington that have plenty of steady vacancies. Some of the newer "luxury" apartments in my neighborhood of Silver Spring have had trouble attracting tenants for one reason or another. The dirty secret is that landlords and property developers will NEVER, EVER come down on rent to fill empty units. An empty unit is not a big profit killer for real estate companies. They will sit on an empty apartment unit for a year or two before some creative class ******* pays the full freight.



It's not in the real estate developer's interest to build more housing. If you have X number of creative class professionals making over $100,000 per year, you make sure the Y supply number slightly trails that market demographic. Why? Because developers can keep increasing the apartment rents for desperate yuppies looking for trendy neighborhoods. Prices keep getting bid upward and the benefits only fall to the developer or property management company.



Middle-class people. Working class people. They are not on the real estate developer's radar screen. It has been this way for the past couple of decades in the DC region. People scuffling at making $50,000 or $60,000 have budget limits with the rental markets and the landlords don't care for people with meager housing spending limits. They want tenants with far deeper pockets.



The only solution is for massive federal, state and local government intervention in the housing markets where either developers are fully subsidized to build housing OR the government must purchase, build and rent out space to middle class income earners (i.e. school teachers, librarians, cops, Fire/EMS personnel, public transit employees, lower pay grade government employees, shopowners etc.)




Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefly View Post
Your premise is misinformed because you use the low-hanging fruit of hipster and equate it to "creative class", which is wrong. Jokestars fell for it, too.

Creative class isn't necessarily artists. It just means professionals, from engineers to analysts. If you have an office job and a college degree, more than likely you're creative class. You probably don't need a haircut, either.

DC and all the suburbs rebuilding themselves into cities are prime examples of professionals revitalizing and creating cities due to their demand for walkable centers over subdivisions, even as they mature into families. Obviously there are both good and bad that come with it, but this article is quite mistaken in its premise.

The rebuttal discredits the article thoroughly enough:
Did I Abandon My Creative Class Theory? Not So Fast, Joel Kotkin - The Daily Beast
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2013, 03:41 AM
 
11,155 posts, read 15,702,097 times
Reputation: 4209
^
No idea why you copied my post in your post, seeing as what I wrote has nothing to do with what you wrote. I don't follow that Florida guy closely but every time he crops up (usually on here from some bitter soul) I see ample evidence, going back to the beginning of his work, of his awareness of the inequality issue and no evidence for this caricature that he ever believed a bunch of cool coffee-drinkers would solve all the world's problems. Quite simply, he accurately concludes from evidence that economic growth is generated (and consequently distributed) the fastest in dense, central locales rather than far flung, spread out areas.

His solution in his rebuttal is to generate more such activity to generate more opportunities for others to engage and have more revenue to support a solid social net and subsidized housing market, which is what you want.

The failure of your core argument, as always, is you never address who's going to pay for it. A city full of poor people trying to support other poor people doesn't work. Having all the wealthier people live in separate municipal suburbs like Bethesda or Silver Spring or McLean while the poor are concentrated in another jurisdiction doesn't allow for the municipal tax distribution you seek.

We don't have a state here but, if we did, forcing all the economic activity (because it has to be somewhere) into far flung areas in order to support poor people living in crumbling central infrastructure far from jobs and retail is inefficient for both federal and state redistribution because, again, more economic activity to fund public housing is generated by creating vibrant cities.

So logic eludes your post since you should support Florida's argument if you think about it for a minute. You will, more than likely, ignore my response, disappear for some time, and then emerge on another thread to paste your rant all over again.

But, if you do care enough to engage in conversations about complex issues rather than just distributing disproven rants, you should at least know that you're not nearly the champion of the poor that you like to think you are.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:



Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > District of Columbia > Washington, DC
View detailed profiles of:

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top