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Great points in your post! I keep saying I go by NOAA's definition of winter, not because I prefer cooler weather, or can't accept others wanting 80/90 all the time, not at all.
If someone likes 80's and 40 seem very cold, I understand, but doesn't make it winter. I don't go by calendar winter, I go by when the temps never get above 30, for over a month, that is winter, plain and simple.
I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make. It was a counter to Tom77s statement that some English people find the climate of the South comparable to an English winter.
Apart from thinking the cold outbreaks pose a challenge to Southern gardeners, I don't post anything to the effect that Southern winters are terrible, or similar to Seattle. It doesn't even strike me as been a big deal, it's just the way the winters are in that part of the world. I'm not sure where you're coming from with the dead palm comment. I think you might have me confused with someone else.
Yes Joe, this post was certainly not meant for you...sorry. I had your name in my quote box as I was about to respond to you (see above about gardening and Seville) about another topic. I deleated your name from the quote box to the orginal message. My mistake.
Last edited by wavehunter007; 06-24-2011 at 10:02 PM..
Yes Joe, this post was certainly not meant for you...sorry. I had your name in my quote box as I was about to respond to you (see above about gardening and Seville) about another topic. I deleated your name from the quote box to the orginal message. My mistake.
No worries, a bit of humour. I do find this whole subject very interesting, probably because I live in a oceanic climate thats has some similarities with some subtropical regions. For instance: even though our summer has a lot in common with the warmest 3 months of a UK summer, I would relate more to Rome because of the close similarities of the coldest 6 months of the year.
I do find this whole subject very interesting, probably because I live in a oceanic climate thats has some similarities with some subtropical regions. For instance: even though our summer has a lot in common with the warmest 3 months of a UK summer, I would relate more to Rome because of the close similarities of the coldest 6 months of the year.
To be honest, I really do too.
If you’ve read any of my posts before, I always mention how many climatologists say that “climate genetics” (ie latitude, air mass control, wind/pressure systems, global circulation…etc) is always the best indication of what the “average” weather will be in any geographic location. Unfortunately, in a media saturated county like the USA…the latest news clip often shapes our understanding and perspectives of climate worldwide. Many people might base their understating of most climates on what they see on TV or a brief visit to a region. This is why I think there is so much contention/discussion about the American Humid Subtropics (Cfa)…there seems to be a lot of confusion about the climate genetics of this region… and they (the climate genetics) get lost in the extremes (ie the less conceals the greater).
The subtropical highs and solar control dominate the weather for about 8 to 9 months a year in subtropical latitudes. Then, from early December to late March (depending on the year), when the polar front/jet reaches its most southerly position, the subtropical highs and solar control lose their complete dominance of the daily weather… and “bouts” of weather with more variability in daily temperatures become somewhat more common. However, even in this narrow time span, just looking at daily highs/lows/number of days with frost…etc can hide a lot about how the genetics of different climates creates local weather. These genetic factors might not become apparent unless one looks at the whole picture. Even locations within the subtropics themselves are influenced by different climate genetics.
Just to ramble a bit …take the position the land location relative to the position of the subtropical high using Houston again:
Long Beach, California (on the eastern side of the subtropical high) is a bit warmer in the combined three winter months (D/J/F) than Houston, TX (on the western side of the subtropical high). Houston ave about 54 F …and Long Beach ave about 56 F in the three winter months. Daily highs in Long Beach in the winter months are about 5 F warmer than Houston… Long Beach will average only about 1 day with frost….and Long Beach will just about never have a daily high fail that fails to get above 50 F (10 C). Houston on the other hand, averages about 15 days with frost, and maybe 10 to 15 days per year fail to get above 50 F. Most people might conclude that Long Beach might experience higher absolute temps in winter than Houston. Yet, the genetics of the east side of the subtropical high creates frequent conditions in winter when there is a southerly flow out of the tropics/Caribbean into the deep Gulf states…yet this happens much less frequently in Long Beach in winter. So while Long Beach might have no days when daily highs are below 50 F (10 C) and far fewer days with frost…it’s a good bet that Houston will see more daily highs above 70 F and more bouts of "hotter weather" in the three winter months than Long Beach, CA will. This is a product of climate genetics of both regions. Yet if someone was to look at average daily highs and days with frost in winter...they would miss this important difference between these two climates.
The same can be said for many other sectors in different climates (tropical, polar, temperate, and dry). The whole climate picture is often greater the sum of its parts.
according to susan, i dont have winter! But this last few days (the temperatures were in the low 40s and the feels like was in the 30s) i was FREEZING! Cant imagine this isnt winter!
The climatic fact is that a climate like Houston will have a few fleeting cool shots a handfull of times in each winter month, beyond that the weather is often sunny and warm. When you find a February (or any winter month) in Seattle, London, or Philadelphia (lol)….that has numbers like that …let us know. In fact, I'll bet you can't find winter temps like that in much of the Mediterranean in the winter months. The numbers are the facts...and the facts are the numbers, no matter how you try to spin it.
To be fair, when looking at sub-tropical zones in the US, I think one needs to look beyond the coastal fringes you keep mentioning and look at interior locations as well. That is a fair comparison. The coastal fringe locations are the warmest and most stable of the US Southeastern subtropics.
Houston is one of the warmer cities in the American Subtropics when you look at average high/low. When you move away cities like New Orleans, Mobile, Savannah, etc., I think it illustrates my point more. I know the US Southeastern subtropics have, on average, mild winters (avg highs above 50 usually), but they also experience drastic temp changes throughout winter that diminish the "mild" nature, compared to other subtropical regions.
If you look at a city like Jackson, MS, which is well within the US subtrpopical zone (at 340 feet above sea level), you see what I mean.
As usual in the south in winter, the temps are all over the place. The highest high in Jan was 76, and the lowest high was 36. The lowest low was 19. Jackson is a city with an avg high of 56 in Jan, yet one third of the month, ten days, didn't get out of the 40's. Almost one third of the month, 9 nights, had lows in the 20's.
The avg high/lows for the US South are somewhat deceiving in my opinion unless you realize the std deviation is around 10F to 12F for both highs and lows. 33% of the time the temps are going to be off in either direction by more than 12F. You get your days in Jackson of low 70's, followed in the same month with highs in the low 40's. That is what I don't like and why I said the floor drops out on the temps. I'd rather have all temps in the winter being in the 50's than get any low 40's along with 70's.
In addition, outside of East Asia, how many other sub-tropical zones in the world have a low of 19F in a month that is dead on average? Again, extremes are colder in the US South than a lot of other sub-tropical zones.
It is because a typical winter weather pattern in the US has the jet stream developing troughs and ridges with the temp swings I'm talking about. The zonal flow is less common. I also don't believe the jet stream takes "fleeting" visits to the US South. I follow the weather day in and day out in the winter, and it seems that every few weeks the jet stream dives into the US South, sometimes further deep than others.
I know every subtropical region has swings in temps, but I think the Southeastern US has some of the more extreme and unstable winters compared to many other sub-tropical regions.
according to susan, i dont have winter! But this last few days (the temperatures were in the low 40s and the feels like was in the 30s) i was FREEZING! Cant imagine this isnt winter!
Lol your winter temperatures are like my April even in mild London, I wouldn't call what you get a winter either! The minimum I personally require for a winter to be a winter is a realistic chance of at least some snow (snow falling at least once every 10-20 years) and some guaranteed frosts every year and regular day maxima under 10C - do you get those?
Lol your winter temperatures are like my April even in mild London, I wouldn't call what you get a winter either! The minimum I personally require for a winter to be a winter is a realistic chance of at least some snow (snow falling at least once every 10-20 years) and some guaranteed frosts every year and regular day maxima under 10C - do you get those?
No, no way, we dont get that, not the snow and definetely not the -10c.
This are the average highs and lows for the 3 months of winter (June, July, August):
This means that we can have a cold wave like the one we ve have this past days (highs in the 40s, lows in the upper 30s) and we can also have 70s temperature (specially in august). But we get enough cold days any winter. Remember the lows in the 3 months are in the 40s, and 40s ARE cold.
No, no way, we dont get that, not the snow and definetely not the -10c.
This are the average highs and lows for the 3 months of winter (June, July, August):
This means that we can have a cold wave like the one we ve have this past days (highs in the 40s, lows in the upper 30s) and we can also have 70s temperature (specially in august). But we get enough cold days any winter. Remember the lows in the 3 months are in the 40s, and 40s ARE cold.
Mmmmm, nah, sorry but that's still not a real winter! We get colder cold snaps in April than you do in your coldest month. Also, winter to me means dark days and lack of sunshine. Your shortest day is nine hours, 51 minutes, and we get nearly four whole months darker than that. Also, your dullest month has about 120 sunshine hours - we have six months duller than that. IMO language should make a difference between a winter like yours and a winter with long spells of dark, freezing cold weather because the word is being used to describe two quite different things.
What you get is more winter though than some 'winters' people talk about. I remember being in Guatemala in their wet season a few years ago and somebody referring to it as being their winter even though that particular day was absolutely insanely hot (perhaps 33C, 50% humidity or so) just because it generally rained for a couple of hours in the afternoon. Er..
Lol your winter temperatures are like my April even in mild London, I wouldn't call what you get a winter either! The minimum I personally require for a winter to be a winter is a realistic chance of at least some snow (snow falling at least once every 10-20 years) and some guaranteed frosts every year and regular day maxima under 10C - do you get those?
Would you consider my climate to get a winter?. There are about 10 days with 10C/50F or colder maximums, but most years won't see below 9C/48F. The minimums are different though with 3 months of 2C/34F or colder average minimums. Lots of frosts, although this year is very different.
As you know snow is rare, but is very close. Cold winds straight of the snow are common during winter ( from only 10 kms away)
It would probably fail your gloom test with a 140 hour average in June, although the total this year will be lucky to reach 100 hours.
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But this last few days (the temperatures were in the low 40s and the feels like was in the 30s) i was FREEZING! Cant imagine this isnt winter! 
.
We get colder cold snaps in April than you do in your coldest month. Also, winter to me means dark days and lack of sunshine. Your shortest day is nine hours, 51 minutes, and we get nearly four whole months darker than that. Also, your dullest month has about 120 sunshine hours - we have six months duller than that. IMO language should make a difference between a winter like yours and a winter with long spells of dark, freezing cold weather because the word is being used to describe two quite different things.
