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The February 2011 data posted actually illustrates Tom77's argument about the wild swings in temperatures Houston experiences.
February 1st saw a 46 F swing in temperature. After a high of 70 F on the 1st, the next day didn't even get out of the 30s. The following two days struggled to reach freezing. But then on the 5th the high reached 60 F. The middle to end of the warmth was relatively warm and stable and the month did indeed end up above average, but the averages can be deceiving. If I were trying to escape winter in the north and visited Houston the first couple weeks of February, I'd be extremely disappointed. You just never know what you're going to get down south in the winter.
I agree - Mediterranean cities are most impressive temp wise compared to their latitude. Also, they are warmer (in the winter months) "for their latitude" than a city like Houston.
Of course, Mediterranean cities are all located in the subtropics (Cs)...not Temperate oceanic climates (Do). As far as Seaville, Spain, the monthly mean January temp is around 10.5 C (51 F)...just about the same as Houston at 51.9 F. So it seems highs should/could be in the same ball park.
I would have thought Seville was warmer than that during winter. The 51F/10.5C is only about the same monthly mean as the same latitude in NZ. Like wise Rome only has about the same winter temps as here. I think the Mediterranean has the warmest mean annual temperature at this latitude.
True, but gardening in winter appears to be quite a task (I'm talking about gardening with a subtropical theme ) there. Plants adapted to a cooler climate would do better in the UK, but a lot of the standard hardy palms, citrus etc, seem to have similar issues with cold outbreaks in both climates. The UK also has the problem, which the South doesn't, of prolonged colder maximum temps and low sunshine hours. The UK would certainly be a better gardening climate, given the latitude.
Agreed.
In between cold snaps, Houston is warm enough to support fruiting Mangoes, Guava, and King Palms (seen all of these before). Citrus is a common backyard plant, though the fruit will spoil if we drop below the mid 20s*F (trees are okay to about 20*F). I doubt the Isles of Scilly (Zone 10) can do that.
Agreed.
In between cold snaps, Houston is warm enough to support fruiting Mangoes, Guava, and King Palms (seen all of these before). Citrus is a common backyard plant, though the fruit will spoil if we drop below the mid 20s*F (trees are okay to about 20*F). I doubt the Isles of Scilly (Zone 10) can do that.
I'd be happy if I could grow mangoes myself, not even remotely close unfortunately, not enough heat. Still Guava and citrus are common backyard plants here. One of the pluses of winter, are loads of fresh oranges and mandarins. UK gardeners trying to grow these would have to be a dedicated lot.
Do you know if there's anywhere at all in the lower 48 which gets less than 1628 hours (which I think is the most generous of all the London averages floating around)?
Do mountains count? I remember Mt. Washington in New Hampshire had 33% sunshine which probably comes out to less than 1628 hours.
I'd imagine the taller mountains of Washington and maybe Oregon might similarly cloudy.
I love how Wavehunter on one of his posts tries to prove that Oceanic climates are so terrible by comparing Houston to Seattle (!!!!) first of all, Houston is at 30N, Seattle is at 47N. Of course Houston is gonna see warmer days in the winter, DUH
But you can't argue that Houston does get wild temperature swings, and is surprisingly cold for it's latitude at time during the winter. Still isn't subarctic though
I think it’s fair to say this whole topic of how cold the American subtropics are in winter has been overdone by certain posters. Hoping for dead palms I suppose is entertainment for some folks.
No one is denying that the American subtropical zone doesn’t have temp swings in the cold months, as well as experiencing the handful for cold days/nights (these are not tropical latitudes after all). However, trying to pass off cities like Houston, New Orleans, Mobile, Savannah…etc as having huge and frequent cold swings, as well as frequent and intense cold weather (like it’s the Russian tundra – lol) is factual absurd and climatically illogical in a genetic sense. The several posts above clearly show – like this most recent one in February 2011 – that Houston will frequently experience many, many days with sunshine and pleasant temps in the 60’s and 70’s (even 80’s –lol), and days/a week of stable temps +/- of 15 F 25 F. A logical observer can plainly see this. Anyone who has spent any time in cities like Houston knows darn well that many businesses hold their conventions in cities like Houston in winter months to get away from the poor weather in the Northern USA.
Attempting to spin 5, 10, even 15 days out of a whole winter of 90 days, then attempting to pass it as “average weather” seems quite absurd to even the casual weather observer. As Trewartha pointed out in noting that temps of 80 F have been recorded beyond the Arctic Circle… can’t hide the fact that Polar climates are cold. The far less should never overshadow the much greater.
I'll take the average winter day in Houston, New Orleans, Mobile,...etc... ANYDAY over the average winter day in cities like Seattle or Philly...so would most people.
Last edited by wavehunter007; 06-24-2011 at 09:42 PM..
True, but gardening in winter appears to be quite a task (I'm talking about gardening with a subtropical theme ) there. Plants adapted to a cooler climate would do better in the UK, but a lot of the standard hardy palms, citrus etc, seem to have similar issues with cold outbreaks in both climates. The UK also has the problem, which the South doesn't, of prolonged colder maximum temps and low sunshine hours. The UK would certainly be a better gardening climate, given the latitude.
This issue of subtropical gardening is quite interesting to me…and becomes even more interesting when we look at the limitations of climates outside the tropics to take part in this type of gardening:
From what little I have read, while it is well known that certain palms can survive in Temperate climates like the UK because frost is infrequent…this seems to only be one part the pie in growing and more importantly, flourishing subtropical plants, esp palms. As you seem to be pointing out above, I too have read that low sunshine hours and frequent low daily high temps are a signifcant issue in growing subtropical plants outside the warm subtropics.
For example, while in London a few times, I have spied the Sabal Palmetto palm which is native to the Gulf and South Atlantic states, and even a few Queen Palms which are widely grown in Florida and cities like New Orleans, Galveston, Corpus Christi..etc. While there is no doubt that these palms are growing in a few London gardens…they are far smaller and appear far less robust than the ones you might see in New Orleans or Houston. Again, I think this is where the difference between Temperate climates (D) and Subtropical climates (C ) become the most apparent: While both climates can (and do) experience cold and even below freezing nights, many, many more days will see highs in the middle of winter in the 65 to 77 F range in the American Gulf/SA states compared to the UK. This is something that the simple “zone map” (of garden zones) can’t show.
There is a book out by Franco (1994) about subtropical gardening, and in it he states several times a subtropical plants ability to take cold temps is often a function of how much heat – and how often they get it. A good example is coconut palms: Both Miami and San Diego are both in the same garden zone (11 I think) – Coconut palms flourish in Miami yet die quickly in San Diego. This has been attributed (in part at least) to not enough heat energy in San Diego.
Last edited by wavehunter007; 06-24-2011 at 09:45 PM..
I think it’s fair to say this whole topic of how cold the American subtropics are in winter has been overdone by certain posters. Hoping for dead palms I suppose is entertainment for some folks.
No one is denying that the American subtropical zone doesn’t have temp swings in the cold months, as well as experiencing the handful for cold days/nights (these are not tropical latitudes after all). However, trying to pass off cities like Houston, New Orleans, Mobile, Savannah…etc as having huge and frequent cold swings, as well as frequent and intense cold weather (like it’s the Russian tundra – lol) is factual absurd and climatically illogical in a genetic sense. The several posts above clearly show – like this most recent one in February 2011 – that Houston will frequently experience many, many days with sunshine and pleasant temps in the 60’s and 70’s (even 80’s –lol), and days/a week of stable temps +/- of 15 F 25 F. A logical observer can plainly see this. Anyone who has spent any time in cities like Houston knows darn well that many businesses hold their conventions in cities like Houston in winter months to get away from the poor weather in the Northern USA.
Attempting to spin 5, 10, even 15 days out of a whole winter of 90 days, then attempting to pass it as “average weather” seems quite absurd to even the casual weather observer. As Trewartha pointed out in noting that temps of 80 F have been recorded beyond the Arctic Circle… can’t hide the fact that Polar climates are cold. The far less should never overshadow the much greater.
I'll take the average winter day in Houston, New Orleans, Mobile,...etc... ANYDAY over the average winter day in cities like Seattle or Philly...so would most people.
I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make. It was a counter to Tom77s statement that some English people find the climate of the South comparable to an English winter.
Apart from thinking the cold outbreaks pose a challenge to Southern gardeners, I don't post anything to the effect that Southern winters are terrible, or similar to Seattle. It doesn't even strike me as been a big deal, it's just the way the winters are in that part of the world. I'm not sure where you're coming from with the dead palm comment. I think you might have me confused with someone else.
I would have thought Seville was warmer than that during winter. The 51F/10.5C is only about the same monthly mean as the same latitude in NZ. Like wise Rome only has about the same winter temps as here. I think the Mediterranean has the warmest mean annual temperature at this latitude.
Well, according to the only source I could find…the Jan mean temp in Seville is 51 F. The average highs should be in the low 60’’s and ave lows in the 38 -42 range. I would think days in the 70’ s would occur in January in Seville now and then.
As far as the Mediterranean (subtropical dry or Cs) having the highest means at this latitude worldwide in winter (if that is what you meant)…I’m not really sure. The subtropical Cs (Mediterranean) sector in California seems pretty close in similar latitudes:
For example, Naples Italy (41 North) has a January mean temp of 48 F (9 C)…while Sacramento, CA (40 North) has a mean January temp of 46 F (8 C). Although Sacramento normally will not see highs in the upper 70’s or low 80’s like Houston might in the winter months - many days in winter will climb into the middle 60’s and even low 70’s once in a while. I was in Sacramento a few years ago in Dec and there were daily highs for a week just below 70 F.
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