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Well, I guess I'm not sure about the gradations of south idea--partly because I'm not clear on what "southern" means in this instance--but I'm happy to admit local and regional distinctions (based on historical industries, ethnicity or country of origin, religion, etc.). Even Allegheny County's once-reliance on steel probably sets it apart from Greene's coal (and now shale) production. And of course, relative distance from urban development plays a role, not just in this area, but in every region. It's just a fact that, typically, rural areas far from large cities can seem more provincial than rural areas near suburbs or urban centers--I'm thinking here of your note about rural Allegheny versus Carmichaels or Masontown.
I will say this: While not true of every long-time resident of rural Greene County, many people in this area are racists, at least in their talk. This may contribute to a "southern" perception. As a teacher, I've had numerous students tell me their father would disown them if they dated an African-American peer. Of course, the county is 99.9% white, according to Wikipedia's census record, and no doubt that contributes to benighted attitudes. But I don't think racism is distinctly southern, either, though many educated northerners seem to think so. My parents live in southeast Texas, in a town of 3,000 that's about 1/3 white, 1/3 black, and 1/3 Hispanic. While there are, of course, race issues, there's also been much confrontation--by necessity--of pure bigotry that has led to the kind of understanding of difference I can only dream about for this area.
I've probably stirred the pot more than I intended ... but, as you said, the forum is a good place to sound out ideas.
I personally appreciate you post, and the racist qualities are one of the more "southern" aspects of the area. I feel that aspects of southern would include but not be limited to: speaking with a twang, country or bluegrass is ones music of choice, having a pickup truck be your vehicle of choice, be socially conservative (economically things can differ more easily), tobacco would be more common due to its historical ties to the south (many people ik that live in Greene County drive to WV to buy cigs due to cheaper prices), have more of an interest in Nascar, lower college degree rates, lower income than places in the Northeast or even the Midwest among other qualities that on average are more prevalent the farther one goes into Dixie. While I know this isn't true about everyone (have some friends in Memphis who act ultra urban) it is on average more true in West Virginia or Kentucky than somewhere like New Jersey or Connecticut
I personally appreciate you post, and the racist qualities are one of the more "southern" aspects of the area. I feel that aspects of southern would include but not be limited to: speaking with a twang, country or bluegrass is ones music of choice, having a pickup truck be your vehicle of choice, be socially conservative (economically things can differ more easily), tobacco would be more common due to its historical ties to the south (many people ik that live in Greene County drive to WV to buy cigs due to cheaper prices), have more of an interest in Nascar, lower college degree rates, lower income than places in the Northeast or even the Midwest among other qualities that on average are more prevalent the farther one goes into Dixie. While I know this isn't true about everyone (have some friends in Memphis who act ultra urban) it is on average more true in West Virginia or Kentucky than somewhere like New Jersey or Connecticut
You are absolutely full of crap on that one. Just because a Pittsburger speaks a form of Appalachian does not make him any more or less "racist" than somebody from Connecticut (where I lived for several years). Same goes for somebody from southern West Virginia. You are playing to old and inaccurate stereotypes with that one. In fact, I saw a whole lot more racism in the New York City area than I have anywhere in West Virginia, and often racism eminates from minority quarters... it isn't just a white thing, and it is destructive and shameful wherever it is found.
In general, Appalachians are unassuming and open to people of any race. Now, if the behavior is questionable, that will meet with opposition. I can't say the same about the Northeast. I can't tell you how often I saw some people openly call people racist names like "cracker" and "Chuck" in a place of business.
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by escilade18
I personally appreciate you post, and the racist qualities are one of the more "southern" aspects of the area. I feel that aspects of southern would include but not be limited to: speaking with a twang,country or bluegrass is ones music of choice, having a pickup truck be your vehicle of choice, be socially conservative (economically things can differ more easily), tobacco would be more common due to its historical ties to the south (many people ik that live in Greene County drive to WV to buy cigs due to cheaper prices), have more of an interest in Nascar, lower college degree rates, lower income than places in the Northeast or even the Midwest among other qualities that on average are more prevalent the farther one goes into Dixie. While I know this isn't true about everyone (have some friends in Memphis who act ultra urban) it is on average more true in West Virginia or Kentucky than somewhere like New Jersey or Connecticut
The things in bold are very present through out much of the rural northeast though.
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTMountaineer
You are absolutely full of crap on that one. Just because a Pittsburger speaks a form of Appalachian does not make him any more or less "racist" than somebody from Connecticut (where I lived for several years). Same goes for somebody from southern West Virginia. You are playing to old and inaccurate stereotypes with that one. In fact, I saw a whole lot more racism in the New York City area than I have anywhere in West Virginia, and often racism eminates from minority quarters... it isn't just a white thing, and it is destructive and shameful wherever it is found.
I personally appreciate you post, and the racist qualities are one of the more "southern" aspects of the area. I feel that aspects of southern would include but not be limited to: speaking with a twang, country or bluegrass is ones music of choice, having a pickup truck be your vehicle of choice, be socially conservative (economically things can differ more easily), tobacco would be more common due to its historical ties to the south (many people ik that live in Greene County drive to WV to buy cigs due to cheaper prices), have more of an interest in Nascar, lower college degree rates, lower income than places in the Northeast or even the Midwest among other qualities that on average are more prevalent the farther one goes into Dixie. While I know this isn't true about everyone (have some friends in Memphis who act ultra urban) it is on average more true in West Virginia or Kentucky than somewhere like New Jersey or Connecticut
These are interesting ideas. Racism, in my opinion, isn't practiced only by people of one skin color, though I think this notion is complicated by historical injustices (another topic altogether). As I said in my original post, I don't think racism is uniquely southern, though it may appear that way to even educated people from the north, who tend to like to lay the racist label on southerners.
A few of the things you mention, in addition to being common to rural people in the midwest and especially northeast, may also be results of the "southernization" of American: think the prevalence of "hot country' on the radio across the nation and the popularity of NASCAR.
In general, Appalachians are unassuming and open to people of any race. Now, if the behavior is questionable, that will meet with opposition.
While I agree with much of your quote, I would say that in my six years in SW PA, I have not found folks "open to people of any race," at least in their talk. Now, it could be that old habits die hard--repeatedly referring to African Americans as [name your offensive label]--and it's hard for me to judge actual behavior, since I live in an area that is 99.9% white. (Though, as I mentioned, I've had several students in different classes say that especially their fathers are hard-core racists.)
I don't have any stake in how this region is characterized, except that I've lived here for six years and will probably live here many more.
My family is from Lewis County, and I'm from Clarksburg and so is Stonewall Jackson...like another poster said, W. Va is MUCH more like the South than the north, culturally and geographically. I consider WV, VA, parts of TN and NC (and I suppose MO) parts of the "Upper South" which is a mountain sort of culture. I do see the difference between us and the deep South, but still closer to these states than say PA and NY, etc.
Cross the Mason-Dixon line, or talk to most Pittsburgers or Ohioans and see what I mean compared to people from here!
I think of fWest Virginia as "part of the South"...but not "down South" (if you know what I mean).
I don't think it's any mystery that most of the country considers West Virginia part of the South.
I consider myself a VIRGINIAN first and foremost because the West Virginia statehood is an illegal entity according to the US Constitution (look it up!).
I had many ancestors fight for the South in Gilmer and Lewis Counties.
I have a lot of friends from up north and think the world of them, but they agree with me on what I'm saying here.
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
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Cornfield, I agree that southern West Virginia is part of the south. But I can't see northern WV as southern. And a lot of people from northern WV and western Maryland agree with me. I mean, if you look at areas around Morgantown, then look at places around Addison NY, you will see little if any difference.
I don't understand why a third option is left out for part of the state: the Midwest. Go to the Ohio River communities and they feel like Ohio. Huntington looks like the Printer's Row neighborhood in Chicago, Parkersburg has the big, old mansions similar to those you find in Cincinnati, and towns like Sistersville and St. Mary's have the old brick looks of the Midwest. The WV counties along the Ohio River are part of the Midwest.
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WVa South or north
