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Old 04-12-2018, 03:12 PM
 
661 posts, read 395,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTMountaineer View Post
There are a number of reasons out little state, which is smaller in size in terms of population than even one large city, is always fighting it out with Mississippi for who gets to come in 50th. and usually winning the battle. Our incredibly inefficient higher education structure is prominent in that situation. We have 10 teachers colleges ... seemingly one every other Interstate exit, and support those with their administrations and bureaucratic structures, and two different political hack hiding higher education boards ...one for the 4 year and higher schools, and another for the community colleges, some of which were illogically ripped off from sponsoring institutions to create the redundant boards hiding, among others, the former governor's wife who is "President" of one of them. It is hugely expensive and wasteful to have the current structure in place. Iowa, for example, has twice the population and half again the land area of West Virginia and they support a total of 3 higher education systems.

The Pennsylvania system based on a Penn State model makes perfect sense for out little state. We could use maybe 5 teachers colleges ... EP, NP, Kanawha, Bluefield, and Fairmont. The remainder should be 2 year feeder schools. Support that structure along with the regional university in Huntington and the national university in Morgantown, and you'd have a far more efficient and useful structure. There is no logic at all in supporting 2 schools 11 miles apart in Concord and Bluefield.


preaching to choir brother CT. West Virginia is the epicenter for cronyism and every man or woman with any power in this state thinks they are king. Sadly, they often are and the state backs them because we West Virginians are just corrupt that way.


I hate every part of our education system. I am ashamed every time the national news points out the school issues in other states got started in West Virginia. The tax payers were blackmailed by the teacher's union and most of the people in this state think it was a good thing. That is my definition of stupid.
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Old 04-12-2018, 09:16 PM
 
9,464 posts, read 11,680,912 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaineer1871 View Post
What is the phrase I'm looking for....law of unintended consequences.

Tying funding to student performance, while also enforcing a land grant institution's obligation of accepting nearly any instate student regardless of prior educational performance couldn't possibly lead to any negative unintended consequences!
Land Grant schools have to accept all 2.0 students that meet the entrance requirements. How many 2.0 students do you know who have credits for calculus, trigonometry, or another "advanced" math course? Since The University doesn't have a remedial program (all the other 4 year schools in the state do have that), there is no chance for deficient students to go to the Morgantown Campus. They can go to one of the other campuses and make up the deficiency and transfer to Morgantown, but they can not enroll as a remedial student there. Other schools permit enrollment as long as any high school math courses were taken to satisfy the number of needed math courses. That can include "Business Math", and so forth. They don't require the advanced coursework. But if you have calculus with a 2.0 gpa, then yes, you can enroll. You can also enroll at Ohio State, Virginia Tech, and Penn State (also Land Grant schools) in that manner.

That is what these people are attempting to use as a guise for ripping off the funding. They are saying that appropriations need to specifically encourage marginal student participation. WVU and WVU Tech don't and won't be doing that for obvious reasons.
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Old 04-12-2018, 09:57 PM
 
661 posts, read 395,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTMountaineer View Post
Land Grant schools have to accept all 2.0 students that meet the entrance requirements. How many 2.0 students do you know who have credits for calculus, trigonometry, or another "advanced" math course? Since The University doesn't have a remedial program (all the other 4 year schools in the state do have that), there is no chance for deficient students to go to the Morgantown Campus. They can go to one of the other campuses and make up the deficiency and transfer to Morgantown, but they can not enroll as a remedial student there. Other schools permit enrollment as long as any high school math courses were taken to satisfy the number of needed math courses. That can include "Business Math", and so forth. They don't require the advanced coursework. But if you have calculus with a 2.0 gpa, then yes, you can enroll. You can also enroll at Ohio State, Virginia Tech, and Penn State (also Land Grant schools) in that manner.

That is what these people are attempting to use as a guise for ripping off the funding. They are saying that appropriations need to specifically encourage marginal student participation. WVU and WVU Tech don't and won't be doing that for obvious reasons.


The program is pretty much just made to draw money away from WVU. Force WVU to take all West Virginia applicants and then penalize them for having under performing students.
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:17 PM
 
9,464 posts, read 11,680,912 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caden Grace View Post
The program is pretty much just made to draw money away from WVU. Force WVU to take all West Virginia applicants and then penalize them for having under performing students.
If that happens (and I'm not convinced it will), it will be like it once was where a ton of under performing students enrolled and flunked out after the first semester or first year. If they do push this through somehow, WVU will not take the underperforming students. They'll raise in state tuition to compensate for the reduction of appropriations. State appropriations are a very small part of WVU's budget in any event. The only thing this would do is rob the better West Virginia students of the opportunity to take advantage of this state's best and most varied educational offerings. WVU is very much unlike the other publically subsidized schools in our state in many ways. These people are making a ton of enemies with this crap, including some very wealthy and powerful ones. If you are at one of the groups pushing this, you really need to take a look and decide if that million or two you might get from this is really worth the counter punch, and that is virtually assured.
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:48 AM
 
1,473 posts, read 1,166,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caden Grace View Post
The program is pretty much just made to draw money away from WVU. Force WVU to take all West Virginia applicants and then penalize them for having under performing students.
Spot on.
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Old 04-14-2018, 12:10 AM
 
9,464 posts, read 11,680,912 times
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I don't believe WVU will lower their standards, but if they do, the idiots supporting this will see this come back to bite them in the butt. Given a choice, students who don't make the cut today and could make the cut tomorrow ... where do you think they will choose to go? A lot of those folks will choose WVU and the other schools' enrollment will drop substantially. This proposal might seem like a good idea to folks from some schools at first, but it could backfire and result is lower enrollment for them.

This is an incredibly stupid move. It doesn't really benefit anybody.
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Old 04-15-2018, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Huntington, WV
4,197 posts, read 6,970,931 times
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I don't think that this formula was required by the legislature to punish any single school. If you put away the emotions about your favorite institution, you'll see that this is likely more about finding a way to be able to fairly distribute money in a state with shrinking population and decreasing tax revenue to best serve in-state students while rewarding better graduation rates. The articles linked below even state as much. If they were truly looking to hurt WVU, as stated, all they would need to do was take away the pop tax. WVU is the only higher ed institution in the state to have its own tax and the beverage industry has asked for years for it to be repealed. Other schools have asked, even recently, to have their own tax but have been denied. Taking 2 years after the formula is put in place to see how it's even going to effect the schools before fully enforcing it is further proof that there is no intent to harm a single school. Right or wrong, as the biggest school who receives by far the largest sum of state money with more out of state students than in-state, there was next to no way that switching to a new formula wouldn't affect WVU.

Quote:
“So, by that logic, if state appropriation is intended to offset the cost of instruction, then that would be intended for resident students only,” he said.

State law includes this legislative goal: “Establishing tuition and fee rates for out-of-state students at levels which, at a minimum, cover the full cost of instruction unless doing so is inconsistent with a clearly delineated public policy goal established by the Legislature, the commission or the council.”
https://www.wvgazettemail.com/news/e...c0950c1b3.html

Quote:
The Legislature mandated that the HEPC study shifting state higher education funding from the current student headcount formula to an outcomes-based formula, with a goal of improving graduation rates, which Hill said range from 54 percent at West Virginia University to the 20-30 percent range for some state institutions.
https://www.wvgazettemail.com/news/e...d357fc389.html
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:58 PM
 
661 posts, read 395,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbailey1138 View Post
I don't think that this formula was required by the legislature to punish any single school. If you put away the emotions about your favorite institution, you'll see that this is likely more about finding a way to be able to fairly distribute money in a state with shrinking population and decreasing tax revenue to best serve in-state students while rewarding better graduation rates. The articles linked below even state as much. If they were truly looking to hurt WVU, as stated, all they would need to do was take away the pop tax. WVU is the only higher ed institution in the state to have its own tax and the beverage industry has asked for years for it to be repealed. Other schools have asked, even recently, to have their own tax but have been denied. Taking 2 years after the formula is put in place to see how it's even going to effect the schools before fully enforcing it is further proof that there is no intent to harm a single school. Right or wrong, as the biggest school who receives by far the largest sum of state money with more out of state students than in-state, there was next to no way that switching to a new formula wouldn't affect WVU.



https://www.wvgazettemail.com/news/e...c0950c1b3.html



https://www.wvgazettemail.com/news/e...d357fc389.html


I can agree to some of your points but uneven legislation is bad legislation. All schools should be affected equally. The problem in West Virginia is simple, too many colleges and universities especially when one considers the shrinking population base. Nicholas County is facing this problem on the elementary and secondary level after the flood of 2016 wiped out five facilities. Realizing that their county was losing population the plan was to consolidate Richwood and Nicholas County high schools into one nice facility for 800 students. The state jumped in to what was a local issue and now forces a new high school in Richwood because those in Richwood fear losing the high school will be a knock the town will not recover from. Has nothing to do with good education or students, it is all about pleasing the folks in Richwood who think their town should be subsidized by the state.


West Virginia only needs one school, WVU. Neither Marshall or WVSU serve any real purpose as stand alones that could not be met by an umbrella of WVU. The State of New York does this with SUNY and that is a good model for West Virginia to follow. Of course it will never happen but therein lies the problem, it should happen and in states where logic is used, it would.
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Old 04-17-2018, 05:15 AM
 
400 posts, read 222,175 times
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4 year schools would be hard to do but the 2 year schools need consolidated asap under one umbrella.
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Old 04-17-2018, 09:44 AM
 
661 posts, read 395,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNada View Post
4 year schools would be hard to do but the 2 year schools need consolidated asap under one umbrella.


John, what are you proposing/ Could you detail it more for me?


At present West Virginia has the following 4-year establishments:


Bluefield State
Concord
Fairmont State
Glenville
Marshall
Parkersburg of WVU
Potomac State of WVU
Shepard
West Liberty
West Virginia Technical of WVU
WVSU
WVU


At present West Virginia has the following 2-year establishments:


Blue Ridge
Bridge Valley
Eastern West Virginia
Mountwest
New River
Pierpont
Southern West Virginia
West Virginia Northern


There also 8 private establishments, but I don't think we need to cover them, even though they do get some state money.
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