Employer now requires all employees get annual flu vaccine (analysis, profit, owner)

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by markg91359

No one likes to be told what they have to do. However, the very nature of public health and interventions like vaccination is that an element of compulsion is necessary for them to be effective. Immunizations are given not only to prevent someone from getting disease, they are given to keep that person from being able to spread disease to others. If everyone gets on their high horse and decides they don't want an intervention which significantly reduces both mortality and morbidity, the intervention is doomed to failure. If 80% of a population is effectively immunized against a disease, the disease ordinarily can be kept from spreading. If you don't achieve that 80% herd immunity, the disease will spread.

Actually the number they are looking for is 90% vaccination rate... if I am the only hold out and I do not know that for a fact... it would mean the facility has better than 99%

Well, gee if Microsoft ran a commercial telling everyone to get their flu shot how effective do you think that would be in terms of getting the job done? The government and public health authorities are the ones with authority here.

See below... the authority of jurisdiction validated my position...

Anti vaccine phobes are always contending there either isn't enough information or that there is hordes of information out there being "suppressed" by the authorities. Its nonsense. Produce one study one journal article from a reputable medical journal stating we shouldn't get our flu shot, or that flu shots don't work. You can't do it. Comments like "my doctor doesn't approve of the flu shot" are meaningless as authority. We don't know who your doctor is or what he really said. For all I know, he's a naturopath as opposed to a real doctor.

Per the Health Department and the CDC and the waiver you sign... informed consent can only occur if you are informed... the information can be as simple as providing a copy of the package insert.

Why does it take an Engineer to ask for the information and not have it provided?

The options to prevent flu are a vaccination or flu mist. Nothing else cuts it unless you want to move to a desert island somewhere.

You overlook the mercury free, pre filled, single dose... which, after asking my physician acquaintances is what they ALL take... if this is what Physicians take for themselves and their families... why shouldn't it be available to a lowly engineer?

The ramifications are less serious--by far--than the risk the disease poses. If you drive a car you're taking much more risk daily than you are taking a flu shot. Do you ever worry about the risk from that? That's a real problem, unlike the one you describe.

Driving is a privilege... at least that is the position for the State of California...

If the vaccine has no side affects/complications... why are there many listed on the package insert?

Also, why was in necessary to set up a fund to compensate those injured from the vaccine? I have not verified it... a previous poster said 54 claims.

Has it occurred to you that one of the reasons you might have remained disease free for 21 years is because others are getting immunized and not spreading disease to you? I'm sick of all the people who tell me stories about eating organic food and taking their vitamins. It means zero, zip. Despite the nouveau popularity of such measures there is little that shows scientifically they prevent disease. On the other hand, you get something like vaccination which is proven to prevent disease and the same group can't believe it.

I am far from a health nut.. although I never drink, smoke, etc...

To say nutrition isn't a factor in fighting off disease couldn't be farther from the truth... any medical professional will attest proper nutrition is essential.

Well rootie toot toot, you got out of having to take a flu shot.

The jury is still out and the final outcome remains to be seen...

You seem well versed on the subject so I will poise a question... what makes November 2012 special in that flu vaccines are mandatory? Could it be medical facilities risk the real possibility of loosing reimbursement if 90% are not vaccinated by 2016 under the 2020 Healthy People Initiative?

And, you're an engineer you've said? College educated? In a field that relies on math and science and you choose to reject the efficacy of scientifically-proven vaccine? I'm not impressed.....

I don't blame you... you should be skeptical of anything you read on an open forum and that includes my background and experience.

I try to practice a live and let live lifestyle... I don't go around preaching what others should do and would hope to be treated the same...

[suzy_q2010]

Originally Posted by Ultrarunner

If the vaccine has no side affects/complications... why are there many listed on the package insert?

Also, why was in necessary to set up a fund to compensate those injured from the vaccine? I have not verified it... a previous poster said 54 claims.

No one has said that vaccines have no side effects or complications, just that the risk of "debilitation or death" from flu vaccine is very small. Tiny. Infinitesimal.

The patient insert is written by lawyers. It includes every symptom reported by people during use of the vaccine, whether the vaccine caused it or not.

Here's the one for good ole ampicillin:

Ampicillin (Sandoz Inc): FDA Package Insert

Notice the big warning about allergic reactions and the smaller one about pseudomembranous colitis.

Does this mean you would not take it?

The vaccine compensation fund is for all vaccines, not just flu vaccine. It was set up because the companies that make vaccines were ready to stop making them. The hassle of dealing with litigation would have made it financially irresponsible for the companies to even try. The system allows people who have truly had serious reactions to vaccines to be compensated without having to sue anyone.

The number 54 is just the number of claims for deaths from flu vaccine since 2005. I cannot tell from the web info how many, if any, of those claimants were awarded compensation. Even if every single one of them was due to the vaccine, that is 54 deaths out of tens of millions of doses of vaccine administered. The risk from the vaccine is incredibly small.

[Ultrarunner]

I doubt we will change each others thinking and that's not my intention.

You have made some good points along with supporting links.

Maybe my real issue is philosophical... at what point do we just become part of the herd?

Of course termination is an option... Every job I have ever held was by being self employed or I was asked to become an employee... Never held a job because I had applied for it.

It could very well be time to become self-employed again... there have been so many changes in the last few years that have nothing to do with my job description...

Some of the changes are we are all being asked to do much more for less and with less.

I think having Doctors and Nurses at the helm was a good thing... apparently, the trend now is to hire professional managers to make all the decisions... some of which have zero medical training and Medical Staff has to remind them of the hows and whys things are done...

Part of the reason I accepted employment was desire to have benefits along with retirement... the pension plan stopped long ago as was stock and bonus plans.

You know they keep the engineers confined to bowels of the buildings only emerging from the dark recesses when called or in an emergency...

We go to great length to avoid patient areas with patients... work as a matter of policy is scheduled to minimize this...

It's not like we even pretend to be healthcare workers...

A few years ago, I was giving training on crash cart response... the funny thing is I'm qualified to instruct on certain aspects... just not implement.

I can't speak for the Nurses... I have observed many that see the bar as being moved ever higher and the training more advanced... just keeping up on the technical side of things can be a full time job.

[Ultrarunner]

The legal aspect is very real...

I know Doctors that despise lawyers or view them as a necessary evil...

That said, so much of the how and why things are done trace back to avoiding legal trouble.

Just look at all the mandatory training required for managers... Sexual Harassment, Discrimination, EEOC, HIPA, OSHA, etc... partially to avoid legal troubles.

I just can't understand why management would put themselves square in the middle of forcing an issue when it is not required.

Someone mentioned the incentive approach to vaccinations... the old carrot or the stick approach...

Another mentioned education...

There is a right way and a wrong way to do things...

[Braunwyn]

Originally Posted by suzy_q2010

No, it's not splitting hairs. The "flu like" symptoms are nothing like the symptoms of full blown influenza and last only a few days. And they are not due to infection with influenza virus. They are a non-specific reaction to activation of the immune system.

Informative and intelligent posts in this thread. I'd rep if I could, so here is a public shout out.

[markg91359]

You overlook the mercury free, pre filled, single dose... which, after asking my physician acquaintances is what they ALL take... if this is what Physicians take for themselves and their families... why shouldn't it be available to a lowly engineer?

There is not proof that the vaccine containing the trace amount of Thimersol is dangerous. We've been over that several times. If we are going to let people start demanding that vaccinations be given the way they want them, I can see a series of ramifications from it. People could claim the following and much more:

1. "I don't want it in a plastic syringe. Because plastics are associated with cancer".
2. "I don't it every year. I want it once every ten years."
3. "I want it refrigerated too 0 degrees tempature because that makes it safe."

Driving is a privilege... at least that is the position for the State of California...

If the vaccine has no side affects/complications... why are there many listed on the package insert?

Also, why was in necessary to set up a fund to compensate those injured from the vaccine? I have not verified it... a previous poster said 54 claims.

SuzyQ has done a good job of answering these questions. I want to add the following:

1. Drug manufacturers are pretty much required to add any complication that is reported to them by doctors on the package insert. So, if a neurotic patient reports to his physician that he suffered seizures after taking the flu vaccine that complication is going to be reported whether the physician observed it or not. Its more involved than that though. Doctors read a publication called the "Physician's Desk Reference" which is a compendium of all medicines that they prescribe. Doctors know when they read through the "side effects and complications" portions of the PDR that all these side effects may not be totally legitimate. However, the value of this information is that if one of the doctor's patients comes back to him and reports the same side effect it may be valuable indeed in raising concerns that the medication does have these problems. Its a basis for comparison.

2. Aspirin, Ibuprofen, and Tylenol have more side effects than these vaccines have. Do you ever take one of those? I know that I do on occasion.

3. As Suzie reports, the VCF was set up to compensate all people who suffer complications from taking vaccines. The most common complications are often not what people imagine. The most common common complication is anaphylaxsis. There is a very small percentage of the population that is allergic to one or more vaccines. Hint: If eggs make you allergic, you may well be allergic to vaccines. Those problems are real, but very rare. A policy decision was made by Congress that these cases were better handled by an administrative body than the court system.

One applying for compensation from the VCF need not prove that the vaccine manufacturer acted negligently or that he produced an "unreasonably dangerous product". These would be prerequisites for a lawsuit in the civil justice system. One only needs to prove that an injury occurred because of a vaccine. Its a better, more efficient way to deal with the handful of vaccine related complications and injuries that do occur. Also, there was some concern that some vaccine manufacturers might go out of business. Personally, I think they wouldn't have, but I think the cost of vaccine could have risen sharply without the VCF. If the VCF paid 54 claims as a result of the use of this vaccine, its proof that the vaccine not only works, but that it does well when we balance risk vs. benefits. You overlook the fact that tens of millions of doses of this vaccine are given and that the vaccine saves hundreds/perhaps thousands of lives every year and reduces hospitalizations and other morbidity by greater amounts.

I am far from a health nut.. although I never drink, smoke, etc...

To say nutrition isn't a factor in fighting off disease couldn't be farther from the truth... any medical professional will attest proper nutrition is essential.

It will only help in a general sense. I mentioned the Spanish Flu of 1919 previously. Surprisingly, the largest number of victims of this flu were young men in their late teens and twenties in good physical health.

I try to practice a live and let live lifestyle... I don't go around preaching what others should do and would hope to be treated the same...

On the whole, people like John Stuart Mills and John Locke had good ideas when it came to individual rights. The problem is that they all lived before the principles of public health and vaccination were known and understood. The truth is, that those principles probably don't mesh very well with notions of laisse-faire and personal liberty. They require some central authority and state action to work the way that they should.

Locke, Mills, Jefferson, and others all lived during a time when two out of every three children didn't live past age 7. Of course, the primary killer was infectious disease. We now have the means to eliminate most infectious disease and prevent all that death and heartbreak that was a key part of the culture in which are Founders grew up.

Sometimes, you have to recognize a narrow exception to what you believe. I don't think the exception has to be very big. It just has to recognize that the reason for mandating vaccination is because it has ramifications not only for yourself, but for all the people you come into contact with. You may have the right to swing your fist, but when it comes into contact with my face (or makes my child sick) that right ends. Isn't the freedom that we all experience because we don't have to worry nearly as much about infectious disease worth that?

[Rambler123]

We're still working our way through various people dying from meningitis contracted from contaminated injection medicine here in Maryland and other states. So, thanks, but no thanks - nobody has the right to force me to risk a potentially lethal injection just because the alternative is that I *might* get sick and *might* cost the employer some time and money (boo hoo.)

These are probably the same companies that give employees a hard time when they take time off from work when they are sick because they don't want to spread their illness! Funny how neither forced flu vaccines nor forcing people to come to work when they are ill benefit the employee... right...

[NJBest]

Originally Posted by Rambler123

We're still working our way through various people dying from meningitis contracted from contaminated injection medicine here in Maryland and other states. So, thanks, but no thanks - nobody has the right to force me to risk a potentially lethal injection just because the alternative is that I *might* get sick and *might* cost the employer some time and money (boo hoo.)

These are probably the same companies that give employees a hard time when they take time off from work when they are sick because they don't want to spread their illness! Funny how neither forced flu vaccines nor forcing people to come to work when they are ill benefit the employee... right...

While I agree that we shouldn't be forced to get the flu shot, your reasoning on why employers do it is wrong and it shows that you are participating in a thread that you didn't even read. It is not about the company saving time and money in relation to you getting the flu. It suggest you actually read the discussion in which you are participating in rather than throw out some random incorrect premise.

[Youthanasia]

A refusal on religious grounds would be pretty successful IMO, especially in California. We had an Indian guy apply to be a state correctional officer (I seriously doubt he had any real intent on being one) and he refused to shave his beard on religious grounds for gas mask fitting (condition of employment) he sued, got $295,000 and a $61,000 a year management job. Religion trumps everything it's the get out of jail free card and the courts tend to agree.

[Rambler123]

Originally Posted by NJBest

While I agree that we shouldn't be forced to get the flu shot, your reasoning on why employers do it is wrong and it shows that you are participating in a thread that you didn't even read. It is not about the company saving time and money in relation to you getting the flu. It suggest you actually read the discussion in which you are participating in rather than throw out some random incorrect premise.

It's hardly an incorrect premise - the only reason an employer would force people to get a flu shot is to save money; no other explanation makes sense. Plenty of time here has been spent debating the nature of vaccines, the dangers of mercury in them, and so on. What I'm bringing up in my post is that even if the medicine in question is considered perfectly safe (which vaccines are not, as covered many times over in the rest of this thread), one can STILL suffer terrible consequences from a seemingly harmless medical procedure.

Long story short, even if it could be proven without a doubt that the flu vaccine is 100% effective (which it is not) and 100% safe (also not true), there are still risks, and thus it is perfectly justifiable for people to not want to take those risks, nor is it acceptable for companies to force their employees to get flu shots.