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According to John Miano in his book Sold Out the "Stem Crisis" is a scam perpetuated by Microsoft. They create this artificial shortage to justify raising the limit on the H-1b visa. Remember that Microsoft is a software company. Depressing salaries across the board is part of their cost control strategy.
Depressing salaries is not the main purpose of hiring H1B's. They often get the same salary as American workers, but work twice as many hours for that salary. And they're a lot less likely to leave for a better job, because other companies are less likely to hire them because of the paperwork. In STEM it's often very valuable to the employer to have some confidence that their STEM employees are not going to suddenly leave for better jobs. From the employer's point of view, that makes them better employees. More dedicated and more productive. Because, working twice as many hours, they often get almost twice as much work done. So it's a double bonus for employers. More reliability, in not leaving the job, and more productivity, in working twice as many hours for the same salary.
Depressing salaries is not the main purpose of hiring H1B's. They often get the same salary as American workers, but work twice as many hours for that salary. And they're a lot less likely to leave for a better job, because other companies are less likely to hire them because of the paperwork. In STEM it's often very valuable to the employer to have some confidence that their STEM employees are not going to suddenly leave for better jobs. From the employer's point of view, that makes them better employees. More dedicated and more productive. Because, working twice as many hours, they often get almost twice as much work done. So it's a double bonus for employers. More reliability, in not leaving the job, and more productivity, in working twice as many hours for the same salary.
Twice as many hours for the same pay is essentially bringing down pay. Production per hourly rate. And if STEM workers leave one job for a better job, then doesn't that imply the first job didn't pay enough? They'd have to raise the pay to keep the worker. So they use the H1B worker who is less likely to switch jobs to avoid having to pay the premium of keeping a different worker. Again, keeping the pay lower.
Your information sort of contradicts your initial statement.
Depressing salaries is not the main purpose of hiring H1B's. They often get the same salary as American workers, but work twice as many hours for that salary. And they're a lot less likely to leave for a better job, because other companies are less likely to hire them because of the paperwork. In STEM it's often very valuable to the employer to have some confidence that their STEM employees are not going to suddenly leave for better jobs. From the employer's point of view, that makes them better employees. More dedicated and more productive. Because, working twice as many hours, they often get almost twice as much work done. So it's a double bonus for employers. More reliability, in not leaving the job, and more productivity, in working twice as many hours for the same salary.
Twice as many hours for the same pay is essentially bringing down pay. Production per hourly rate. And if STEM workers leave one job for a better job, then doesn't that imply the first job didn't pay enough? They'd have to raise the pay to keep the worker. So they use the H1B worker who is less likely to switch jobs to avoid having to pay the premium of keeping a different worker. Again, keeping the pay lower.
Your information sort of contradicts your initial statement.
Well that is the thing, the reasoning is a bit of a contradiction in the first place. Pay somewhat high but require longer hours to keep (per hour pay low) and drive pay lower by bringing in H1B visa workers.
Because the whole point of doing a bunch of hard work on the front end is so that you are not having to work youself to an early grave. That's why people endure things like top tier engineering programs, medical school, etc. I did not become an engineer so I could barely crack 100k working myself into an early heart attack.
The whole name of the game is working as little as possible while making as much as possible. If my skills, abilitys, talents, etc cant get me to well over 100k (not just barely cracking it) without working obscene hours then I will have to learn to live with less because I am not going to work myself to death.
I will work hard like that for a very brief period if the pay out is good and I can leverage my talents, but if not then its time to start cutting life style.
There is no reason to work that much unless it is for a very brief period and is going to result in a highly leveraging certificate, degree, profound skill set, etc that sets you up to make 6 figures without continually working long hours.
I think it is sad and upsetting that this has to be explained, do you want your kids passing away at 45 from a heart attack from working 60-80 hrs a week indefinitely?
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Originally Posted by eyeb
I wonder about that... seems like with people on CD talking about six figures a lot, they also complain about having to work 60 hour/weeks...
even a $60k job can make $100k if they put in 20 hours of overtime each week...
I certainly didn't go into chemistry expecting to make big six figure salaries but I sure as heck would not have bothered if I knew I would get offers for $15 an hour and be expected to work for a temp agency so companies don't have to give benefits.
People talk about entitlement. I think prospective students are entitled to the truth about the field so that they can make an educated decision as to whether they want to work that hard and incur that kind of debt to get into a field that has become an appalling race to the bottom and unstable to boot. It seems the only way in the future we are going to get Americans to go into science is to lie to them which seems to be what a lot of people are doing with this STEM shortage nonsense.
It seems the only way in the future we are going to get Americans to go into science is to lie to them which seems to be what a lot of people are doing with this STEM shortage nonsense.
No, the problem is the American penchant for avoiding any information that takes more than 140 characters to explain. People don't want to analyze the data any farther than a headline.
Some STEM fields are hiring well--and they're pretty much the same ones that were hiring well 20 years ago--but learning which ones requires reading beyond 140 characters. In those same fields, a certificate is often as good as a degree--but figuring out how to make that work for you takes reading beyond 140 characters.
I certainly didn't go into chemistry expecting to make big six figure salaries but I sure as heck would not have bothered if I knew I would get offers for $15 an hour and be expected to work for a temp agency so companies don't have to give benefits.
People talk about entitlement. I think prospective students are entitled to the truth about the field so that they can make an educated decision as to whether they want to work that hard and incur that kind of debt to get into a field that has become an appalling race to the bottom and unstable to boot. It seems the only way in the future we are going to get Americans to go into science is to lie to them which seems to be what a lot of people are doing with this STEM shortage nonsense.
I had the same expectations when I graduated. This isn't about science graduates getting greedy and demanding six figure salaries like upper management and CEOs, it's about sciences graduates expecting to start at a living wage and a decent middle class salary. A competent hard working science graduate deserves at least a starting salary of $45-50k with full benefits and the potential to work their way into a 6 figure income once they prove they are an exceptional chemist/scientist.
I don't think that is too much to ask for as a science graduate; however, crap temp jobs paying $15 per hour with no benefits has become the norm for fresh science graduates. If you got to settle for that lousy pay you might as well get a job at McDonald's after high school and work your way up to manager or sale cars for a living. $15 per hour is defiantly not worth going to college for and getting stuck in a dead end temp job.
I had to move several hundreds of miles from my hometown for a decent chemist job and if science and other STEM degrees were so hot as the media claims them to be a STEM graduate shouldn't have to move cross country to get a decent job in their profession.
6 figures is the new middle class with inflation. When I first started out in engineering I had to live at home, but I live in a high COL area. Even still 55k a year is not that much.
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Originally Posted by Poor Chemist
I had the same expectations when I graduated. This isn't about science graduates getting greedy and demanding six figure salaries like upper management and CEOs, it's about sciences graduates expecting to start at a living wage and a decent middle class salary. A competent hard working science graduate deserves at least a starting salary of $45-50k with full benefits and the potential to work their way into a 6 figure income once they prove they are an exceptional chemist/scientist.
I don't think that is too much to ask for as a science graduate; however, crap temp jobs paying $15 per hour with no benefits has become the norm for fresh science graduates. If you got to settle for that lousy pay you might as well get a job at McDonald's after high school and work your way up to manager or sale cars for a living. $15 per hour is defiantly not worth going to college for and getting stuck in a dead end temp job.
I had to move several hundreds of miles from my hometown for a decent chemist job and if science and other STEM degrees were so hot as the media claims them to be a STEM graduate shouldn't have to move cross country to get a decent job in their profession.
I admit to not knowing much about the chemistry job market. We employ very few chemists where I work and they are all doing routine lab work (QC lab mostly). They really don't do "science" or even highly detailed analysis, so I have no basis to compare to other chemistry jobs out there. The vast majority of our technical staff are physics and engineering (ME, AE, EE mostly) but for them pay seems to range between around $60K for entry to $120/130K for the key experts. Even so we have a hard time hiring because those ranges are not competitive for new hires with the skills we need.
Would y'all mind explaining what it is chemists do that prevents them receiving the same level of pay as other STEM fields? Are most chem jobs like ours (mostly repetitive labs) or more research? Just trying to understand the chemistry market since it seems very different from the one I know.
I personally run my own analytical lab for a small company. I do a lot of method development, special projects, instrument maintenance, instrument aquisition, data analysis I consult with all other groups to meet their needs etc.
There are some chemists really, more technicians that should not require a college degree, do nothing more but run very simple textbook methods like run a moisture balance or autotitrator. Others do full method development, troubleshooting and complex analyses that require the degree.
The demarkation between technician and chemist is part of the problem. Companies are demanding chemist qualifications and paying technician wages and naturally this leads to extreme poor morale. Also the use of temp agencies is a plague. Technicians should not require anything more than an AS and have duties of minimal complexities. Anything complex or requiring troubleshooting is a college educated professional and need to be paid reflective of that.
That is just the field of analytical chemistry. There is also regulatory, food, synthetic, and many other fields.
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