What if Arizona became a Pro Union State ? (lawyers, employment)

[observer53]

Please keep this topic on the original question, to keep it Arizona related. Thank you.

[rational1]

In the US we face a very big social problem with HS-only white males. They have high unemployment, and low wages when they are employed. Unions were one of the few things that tended to push wages up for this group. Now I recognize that things got out of hand in some areas and industries- wages got to an unsustainable point for, say, the steel industry. I think now the pendulum has swung and unions would do more good than harm.

[observer53]

Let me try this again. The OP was an ARIZONA question, this is an Arizona forum. Keep the discussion specifically related to the OP, or take it to the appropriate general forum.

[Potential_Landlord]

Originally Posted by observer53

Please keep this topic on the original question, to keep it Arizona related. Thank you.

Observer: ok!

Let me rephrase my question to the O.P. from:
Therefore, if your goals are to make our nation less prosperous as a whole and particularly eliminate the middle class, union busting is a proven method. My question to the O.P. is why he wants to do this to our Great Nation?
To:
Therefore, if your goals are to make our state less prosperous as a whole and particularly eliminate the middle class, union busting is a proven method. My question to the O.P. is why he wants to do this to our Arizona? - I wonder if I will ever get a response and if that one based on ideology or reality.

[Zathras]

Originally Posted by Potential_Landlord

Observer: ok!

Let me rephrase my question to the O.P. from:
Therefore, if your goals are to make our nation less prosperous as a whole and particularly eliminate the middle class, union busting is a proven method. My question to the O.P. is why he wants to do this to our Great Nation?
To:
Therefore, if your goals are to make our state less prosperous as a whole and particularly eliminate the middle class, union busting is a proven method. My question to the O.P. is why he wants to do this to our Arizona? - I wonder if I will ever get a response and if that one based on ideology or reality.

Please. I reject your theory that the difference in Arizona prosperity between your two time periods is necessarily related to union activity. I might just as easily put forth the notion that social welfare programs in Arizona were much smaller in your first time period than they were in the second, and therefore anyone who supports social welfare programs has a goal of making Arizona less prosperous.

The problem with unions in AZ (or anywhere) is that they demotivate. I'm not claiming there are no upsides to unions- there are. But the days when safety and fair treatment were major problems are long gone.

[magnum0417]

Originally Posted by Potential_Landlord

Observer: ok!

Let me rephrase my question to the O.P. from:
Therefore, if your goals are to make our nation less prosperous as a whole and particularly eliminate the middle class, union busting is a proven method. My question to the O.P. is why he wants to do this to our Great Nation?
To:
Therefore, if your goals are to make our state less prosperous as a whole and particularly eliminate the middle class, union busting is a proven method. My question to the O.P. is why he wants to do this to our Arizona? - I wonder if I will ever get a response and if that one based on ideology or reality.

Our neighbor New Mexico has way more union presence than Arizona. How has that worked out for that state economically ? Unions benefit a SELECT FEW people who get referred in from the inside. People with talent who are not brought on as "referrals" end up moving to states down south or the SW like AZ where the hiring is more of a level playing field. 22 year old teachers out of college have an easier time attaining jobs here than in Union States like NY where people milk their tenure for all they can. Are the wages generally slightly higher in Union Dominated States as opposed to Arizona ? Yes. But generally by about $1.50/hour Statewide for construction jobs. However, the red tape creates issues that long term cause jobs to be relocated anyhow for cheaper labor.

Nevada is a Right to Work State but seems to have found the balance of making unions work too. Not too long ago, Nevada was encouraging new grads $35000 teaching jobs in Las Vegas area due to a lack of teachers. That's not too bad. Arizona's starting salary is around $28000.

[visitor21]

If Arizona become a pro-union state, then it might end up like pro-union (and highly successful) Germany!

[Zippyman]

Originally Posted by Zathras

The problem with unions in AZ (or anywhere) is that they demotivate. I'm not claiming there are no upsides to unions- there are. But the days when safety and fair treatment were major problems are long gone.

I think this is the fundamental point that you're missing. In Arizona, "fair treatment" of workers isn't the law. Businesses in Arizona are free to fire people for no reason, or unfair reasons with impunity. I've personally been a victim of an employer who tried to skirt overtime laws and settling that issue took several years, as the government does not enforce those basic laws. Unions are completely worthless until you or a family member is the one getting hosed. The emperor has no clothes - the agencies that are charged with enforcing the most basic worker protections are woefully understaffed and underfunded, and intentionally so in Arizona. You can pretend that "the days of worker abuse are long gone", but spend an hour at the EEOC office & you might have a different opinion.

[magnum0417]

Originally Posted by visitor21

If Arizona become a pro-union state, then it might end up like pro-union (and highly successful) Germany!

Unions dilute the job market and the middle class. Say AZ becomes a union state for construction fields. A select few companies will pay $20/hr for union wages to a small percentage of the workforce in the field. The remaining 80% will either lose their jobs or take pay cuts because Acme Construction (the 80% Non Union) cannot maintain their top staff . That will further encourage migration of skilled labor or add to the so called "illegals" that some state have permeated the job market here.What's more efficient ? Carpenters getting $15 to $20 non union ? Or 20 % getting $22 Union leaving the other 80% to take paycuts because their employers cannot compete with Union Wages.

[Burning Madolf]

Originally Posted by visitor21

If Arizona become a pro-union state, then it might end up like pro-union (and highly successful) Germany!

Hahaha, yeah, THAT'S why AZ isn't as "successful" as Germany.