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I think I'm confused by this thread. I'm not sure if it's going in the direction it's intended, but that's not going to stop me from contributing!
I'm a Ben Franklin fan, not an expert, but a fan. Franklin was raised in the Presbyterian church, but felt, at a young age, that organized religion was not his thing. He left and reserved his Sundays for "studying." Franklin did write that he believes in a "deity"; not necessarily God.
I think people believe that Franklin was puritanical, but he was not. He maintained two separate households -- remaining married to one woman, while living openly with another in France. Franklin was not "separated" from his wife, he simply maintained the two households. Many people in France thought his mistress was his wife, but he corrected them. He had children out of wedlock and saw nothing wrong with that, since many men during his time did the same thing.
Do I think that Ben would agree with me/us today? I think he would believe that our government has become way too involved with our personal lives. I think he would think that our morals are being dictated to us instead of us having the right to live our lives the best way we know how (which varies from person to person). I think he would stress that you do not get a cold from leaving your window open at night or going outside in cold weather with wet hair.
Franklin was, in my opinion, a phenomenal man. He was admired, and despised, by many. He went against the grain. He pushed the limits with his life and with his government.
...........there is a sentence or two I found, how frankln"s wife got pregnant by another man before Franklin married her........he married her and cared for her but only that she could live a more normal life............then he went to france and gained the ear of the french king............who saved our bacon in the American Revolution............I suspect he was a country builder......oh he also was said to have built a church for a preacher he liked............Franklin does not fit into you little boxes and he does not fall into such unthought out categories....but That is my opinion but I know one thing beyound a shadow of doubt. I could be wrong.
Well then, either you're lying about being an agnostic or you lied about being a believer in Christianity. Which one is it? Because here's what you said on another thread:
Those are not the words of an agnostic.
Now, if you want to discuss how Ben Franklin's agnosticism brought about many of his ideas, or how the fact that he was a thinker caused him to become an agnostic, then we'd have a topic.
Otherwise, I still think you're just trolling. At the very least, you're blatantly contradicting yourself, and I'm calling shenanigans.
**And as MargoKey pointed out below, Franklin wasn't even an agnostic, but more of a deist (?) which means this doesn't belong in this forum AT ALL.
In my reading and studying of the man, I have come to the conclusion that he was either agnostic or a Deist. I would lean more toward being a Deist, since he did worship a "god," though not the Christian God.
The founding fathers of our country were, for the most part, Unitarian. They believed in freedom of religion and were not Christians. The separation of church and state is critical -- we, as Americans (speaking to the topic of the founding fathers), are not all Christian and tolerance of non-Christian beliefs must not only be expected, it should be demanded.
I must also state that I am in no way a historian of any kind. I have, however, studied world religions purely for self-education for many years.
One last word about Franklin, he is definitely someone I would have hung out with. He was sociable, the life of the party, intelligent, and had a wry (and dry) sense of humor. I would expect that in his midlife to later years, he was quite the dirty old man. Just an observation.
Did George Washington attend church, or write about relegion or God?
Yeah - he wasn't an elected official but he was a huge player.
He was an instigator of sorts. Definitely a radical who played a big part in bringing the Revolution.
read the minutes of the first day of the first congress and what john adams had to say about it........google
Considering what religion was like during Franklin's time, coupled with my opinion that he was a Deist, I really can't guess what kind of god he worshiped. He may have worshiped nature itself. Deists form their beliefs in morality and reject the Christian concept of Jesus Christ.
Since Franklin was a figure in the Age of Enlightenment, I would tend to believe that his religious beliefs were influenced by his self-awareness of reasoning and morality, rather than what was dictated by the Church.
You have to keep in mind that, during the formative years of the United States government (not including what happened centuries before), religion was not as it is today. It was not freely discussed, and Christian theories were widely rejected.
I don't know what book you are reading on Franklin, but one of the best I've read is Benjamin Franklin: An American Life, by Walter Isaacson.
the church of England , before the revolution, was THE CHURCH in Virginia 1607....
In many ways this is an old debate and relevan to the atheist/agnostic section. Were the Founding Fathers religious or not?
I bear in mind that they they assumed that 'something' intelligent must have made everything. Apart from that, there seems a mix of fulsome praise of Bible, religion and Church and fearsome denunciation of the same.
Franklin was obviously an intelligent and able man and had an enquiring mind. His morals are none of my business.
What I haven't seen during eight pages is whether he believed in Bible, religion and Church and, indeed, in a Deistgod who nevertheless was controlling events (at a suitable distance) or not. I may have a look.
What quotes of his would I, as an atheist, agree with?
“To Follow by faith alone is to follow blindly.”
“If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest.”
“Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn.”
“God helps those who help themselves.”
“The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason.”
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." (I agree with it but a few theists might not.)
"It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority."
"Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that's the stuff life is made of."
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
"If everyone is thinking alike, then no one is thinking."
What quotes of his would I see as suggesting his espousal of Christianity.
"In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when present to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings?... I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth - that God governs in the affairs of men."
If a deist god, a hands - on one.
"How many observe Christ's birthday! How few, His precepts!" (like Jefferson, he endoresed the precepts, but did he unlike Jefferson, endorse the divinity claims?)
"Fear not death for the sooner we die, the longer we shall be immortal." (of course, he might have meant 'imortal in historical repute' but it sounds like he believed in an afterlife.) but:-
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it,..."
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 02-07-2011 at 07:58 AM..
I become suspicious when a poster revives his own thread two years later. I become suspicious when I see random phrases thrown together in a way that makes me think that English is not one's primary language. I become suspicious when someone questions well-known facts about a famous historical figure. The more suspicious I become, the more I think of trolls living under bridges.
What can I say........this is a Great accident....?...we are sharing Ideas? No? We are sharing what somebody put out there as fact......and we should .But can we agree there are holes in what others think and say? False Memories, False conclusions.... implanted or not, heartfelt belief or sinister plot? So is feeling a proof? Is believing proof? Is not believing a proof? ARE words on a page proof? Is the congressional record or any value?
Obviously belief does not constitute proof, As a child I believed in both Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, whole civilizations have believed that the sun was a firey chariot being drawn across the sky. For a century or so most american citizens thought women were not smart enough to vote and that blacks were mentally deficient. The list of things that people once believed were absolutely the truth that turned out to be quite erroneous is extensive. Hundreds if not thousands of gods now fall into this same category, I suspect that, in time, so will the rest of the imagined dieties. What has been proven (some of which comes from the fossil records) the existence of a myriad of ancient critters that eventually (over millions of years) didn't exactly die out in entirety, but rather the survivors of ancient volcanos and earthquakes, poisoned atmosphere et al. left a fossil trail that points to evolution of various still found specie. There are some that say "Well,....evolution is just a theory!!" How True! But... in scientific circles being recognized as a real theory is a big deal. Boyles law is a theory. Einsteins' theory of relativity, Force equal Mass times acceleration, The earths' rotation around the sun, Our Solar System, the theories of propulsion or magnetic attraction----all are just theories ya know? Tis wise not to discount the things that science terms a "Theory". I do believe in the theory of gravity, but not just because I can jump up and come back down. Philosophy makes a distinction between belief, knowledge, and true opinion.
Yes. it is valuable as a record of what the Congress has done. However, I thought every American schoolchild knew that members of Congress sometime have documents inserted into the Record, just as if the words were spoken on the floor during a session. Franklin was not a member of Congress, so anything he said that was placed in the Record would have little impact on the functioning of the government. Why anyone would give any import to something Franklin said that was placed in the Congressional Record is beyond me.
In large part because of "Poor Richards Almanac" he became known for stating certain truths, some were popular, some were not. he was good at writing his thoughts. He also owned the printing press.
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